Two years to the day.
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 09:06
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quote:Where to begin. Frankly, a statement like that insults your intelligence, Drakey. I'm going to leave aside the main thrust of the problems I have with the state of Israel, since we can argue that and never get anywhere ever. The implicit racism in that sentence is disgusting. Presuming "they" is a reference to the Palestinian people as a collective (since I very much doubt that even you would say that no innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army's mad quest for retribution) it is only one jump from what you are saying to saying that Palestinians deserve whatever they get. Do you really believe that all Palestinian people who get in the way of the Israeli army condone suicide bombing? And that, even if they did, they somehow deserve to die? Then there's the whole issue that the Palestinians began the aggression in the first place, but I can rattle on about the war crimes of Ariel Sharon for hours, and like I said, it won't get us anywhere. Are you actually advocating total war here, Drakey? Last time I checked that was illegal under international law and is generally condemned by the world community. Suffice to say, I'm appalled. [ Saturday, April 02, 2005 09:15: Message edited by: Morgan ] Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 11:48
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"They" refers to Palestinian militants. They knew that attacking Israel would bring about the death of Palestinian civilians. I'm not saying that Israel is not at fault for some of the present situation, but all of the military actions have begun from the Arab nations and Palestinians. Multiple invasions and intifadas have been reacted to, and Israel has not been the one to start with military might. The whole situation could have been different from the beginning if, instead of starting a terrorist campaign against Israel, matters were settled in a civil matter. But they weren't. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 12:41
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Going back in time will not take us anywhere. One may as well argue that Israel is a left-over of British colonial policy created in a conspiracy to get rid of Jews from the rest of the world. It is a matter of perspective. We will not get around the fact, however, that Israel is a product of WWII in particular of the Holocaust and not only British but global failure to provide local security. Israel would not exist without a superior army financed largely by the US and not without own strategic interests. Imho, with the decline of US military and economic manoeuvring space due to the bottomless cul-de-sac in Iraq in which the US army is trapped, other mechanisms of stability will take over from suicide bombings and Israeli bulldozers etc, in particular as the fall of Saddam Hussein seems to have cut ino the money supply for suicide bombers. If only war expenses would figure somewhere at the top of the list of spending cuts... Just think of it, what could have been accomplished in terms of Palestinean recompensation for land and water with all the money spent for the Israeli military... Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 12:53
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Israel's army is largely independent and capable of surviving without US backing. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Saturday, April 2 2005 18:09
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Israel spent roughly $7.4 billion of its own money on its armed forces in 2004, while receiving $10 billion in U.S. aid. Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Sunday, April 3 2005 02:12
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And my post still stands. Just because they receive US aid, it doesn't mean that they're a slave to US interests. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Sunday, April 3 2005 06:05
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I don't think we should have helped them, rather more help them with the cleanup crew aka give $ to help repair their nation whenever this is over. Or whenever they all die off. Then we'll save $. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, April 3 2005 13:20
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quote:No, indeed not; I am more worried that it is quite the other way around. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5662
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written Sunday, April 3 2005 14:17
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i just drop by and saw this topic who started first? the international community, by creating Israel it wwas something like this: "oh, poor jews, they were massacred by the nazis, lets give them a country." "yes, in their sacred place, so they are happy" "and we even get rid of them, how convinient". did they forgot about palestinians, who have lived in that region for centuries? isn't it ood that no one rely cares about them? the west ignores them and islamic extremist factions use them as cheap infantry (those bombs they use are actually cheaper than machine guns, a lot cheaper) and what about radical israelis? they insist on colonizing areas next to palestinian villages, and when comflict rises, they just complain to their army. they even consider an honor to kill a palestinian, without any reason, while suicide bombers at least believe they are going to heaven if they kill some jews let them kill each other, someone said? impossible to accomplish oh, and about booming palestinian population, iaraeli economy is actually fuelled by palestinian manpower that, and US money oh, and by the way, there are plenty of US belic industries who earn a lot from middle east wars convinient isn't it? what about oil? has anyone forgot middle east has more oil than water? and aren't all these coincidences sort of disturbing? Posts: 38 | Registered: Sunday, April 3 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Monday, April 4 2005 15:05
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Just as a side remark, as I have been asked about it: I am not "imho" and I would appreciate not to be mistaken for him. In addition, I want to believe that our writing styles differ sufficiently so that we are not mistaken for each other. Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, April 4 2005 17:01
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quote:Doesn't Judaism pretty frankly say that sons are not accountable for the sins of the fathers? The 'terrorist campaign' you mention started decades ago. The men who started it are politicians now; it's their sons doing the suicide bombings and their grandchildren getting killed in IDF 'counterterrorist raids' and similar nonsense. If Israel wants peace, it has to take initiative: it has the forces and the resources to survive on a purely defensive footing, and very few Palestinians are going to support the 'terrorist campaign' in question if it's clearly one-sided. I'd also like to note that the U.S. political discourse falls to the sharp right of the Israeli one. The Israeli people on the whole don't want any part of the kind of containment/retribution doctrine we spout on their behalf. A lot of them have, living near the 'front line', come to the sensible conclusion that the hardliner strategy won't end until one or both of the races living in Israel's borders has been exterminated. [ Monday, April 04, 2005 17:07: Message edited by: Bad-Ass Mother Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5662
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 10:27
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i am afraid what Bad-Ass said is true given the present circumstances, it is unlikely that this conflict is to end without terrible consequences for one of its sides personally, i think the best solution for this problem, if we can even consider it good, is the extintion of Israel, and the fundation of a palestinian state. i don't have nothing against jews, but this is the least painful way to stop the present conflict, for both sides however, chances are that this situation drags on forever, because of the delicate balance between the US and Saudhi Arabia and other middle east countries note: i am not a current menber of this forum, who has decided to change is name in order to participate in this topic. i am actually a new menber Posts: 38 | Registered: Sunday, April 3 2005 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 10:41
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quote:Be realistic. Israel is here to stay. How about the Palestinians give up their dreams of a state? Likely? No. Fortunately, progress is being made. Settlements are starting to be dissolved. This is a huge first step on Israel's part. Abbas is also gaining headway. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 11:27
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In my opinion, I believe there should be war because people die. It may sound harsh and inhuman, but if we didn't have war we would overpopulate too quickly. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 15:44
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But if there wasn't any more war all the countries who use money for defenses could put it instead into a combined effort to further space exploration. Once we find another inhabital planet we can populate that as well. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 15:52
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Killing each other violently does not strike me as a very intelligent way of counteracting overpopulation. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Tuesday, April 5 2005 16:00
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Personally, I don't think living on another planet will work in the next 1000 years. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, April 6 2005 06:49
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quote:1000 is a hilarious overstatement. The same could have been said about the internet or space travel as little as a 100 years ago. In theory, there is nothing preventing us from colonizing the solar system. The matter is merely one of cost - and that can be overcome when the necessity does arise. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 6 2005 13:47
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The Middle East is not the seat of the world's overpopulation problem anyway. —Alorael, who believes that there are still some technical problems with permanent settlement of other planets beyond cost. Can a perpetually self-sustaining and self-contained ecosystem be established anywhere yet? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5662
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written Wednesday, April 6 2005 13:57
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yes, i must admit it. Israel is here to stay. and it is also true that israelis are making some effort to achieve. however, one must understand that it is easy to recruite suicide bombers, when they are leaving in a camp where death falls from the sky(israeli bombardments), and that those bombers will surely act soner and more violently if someone drestroys their house or their family's. and about palestinians giving up on their dream for a state is very, very unlikely. alas, all the peace agreements so far give the palestinians some territory for themselves Posts: 38 | Registered: Sunday, April 3 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Wednesday, April 6 2005 17:54
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quote:Okay, kid, lemme quiz you on something. Q: What has happened to all the most dominant species? A: They get wiped out And if you haven't realized yet, we're the dominant species. Of course, this won't happen for a long time, but we will waste away our resources. -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, April 7 2005 01:26
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quote:What do you mean by this? -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, April 7 2005 14:26
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If the Palestinians are given land to form their own state, would it end the violence or would they continue to try to get the entire area that was once theirs? -, saying dominant species get wiped out makes no sense. What do you mean by a dominant species? Not everything suited to its evolutionary niche goes extinct! There haven't been human beings or anything similar before, so how can you know what will happen to us? —Alorael, who has nothing to add to this topic besides these questions. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 5219
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written Thursday, April 7 2005 14:32
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How about dominant being the most successful species. It's always happened eventually. An epidemic occurs, and they die off for some odd reason. :confused: -------------------- You can take my Windows XP when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 394 | Registered: Saturday, November 20 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Thursday, April 7 2005 15:29
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That the dinosaurs eventually died off has absolutely no bearing on the survival of the human race. Besides, humanity's adaptability and technological prowess make us far more likely to survive radical environmental transitions and the like. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |