Politics in Exile?
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 09:23
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I don't know if this has been discussed before, or if this belongs in the exile boards. But it seems to me that the Exile Trilogy is loosly based on the American Revolution. Outcasts sent to a new world? It sounds similar. What do you all think? (If this has been talked about before, just let me know.) Also, what Blades Scenarios, and other Spidweb games throws philosophy in the mix? -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 09:26
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I think you are horribly wrong. There were many people who traveled to America who were not outcasts; money was a big factor. America was all about exploration, resource gathering, and trade, not punishment. Sure a few people were sent there, like the Puritans, but that was just a small part of them. And in the direction you are heading why not mention the French, Dutch, Spanish, and Russians? Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 09:38
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If it is about real-world 'outcasts', Australia might be a better example for its early use as a penal colony. Still, even that is probably not as applicable, since the prisoners then were for the most part petty criminals (you know, steal an apple and stuff), and not political opponents. The point they have in common is that in both cases it was considered a 'mercy' to deport the people, rather than kill them. That's where the similarity stops: Did the Empire, having just discovered Valorim, have the problem of over-population? I think not. It's unlikely that there is any one-to-one analogy that Exile represents (and if there is, Jeff will probably not admit or identify it). It's more the concepts that can be applied to our world - more and more each day, now, and perhaps last during the cold war. And if anything, I don't consider Exile a story that says "This (almost) happened", but rather saying "This might happen". -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 12:12
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Two Strands and Bandits (both by myself) have heavy leanings. Nebulous Times Hence also has bits of inevitable liberalism dashed in. Destiny by Robert Ashton is also incredibly heavy on fiscal conservatism. As for Exile? It's basically infantile hatred of bureaucracy (the "Empire") and bass-ackwards libertarian nonsense for a plot. (This is inevitably extended in DwtD- "Capitalism is a naturally occuring organism, and communism is a virus that eats peoples souls!" Hell, the BoA version of ASR is almost unbearably childish.) -------------------- 私のバラドですそしてころしたいいらればころす Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 13:23
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It is more like you took various Roman citizens and sent them to the mining town of Sardinia where they would slave in the mines for the rest of their lives which by the way did rebel against the Roman empire and was put down numerous times. I agree Australia would be a better example than the United States. Most of the original settlers in Australia were sent there instead of prison. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 15:49
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Eh, remember that the American colonists were not forbidden to come back to England. Also, they were fighting to become a free nation, not to go back to their homeland. Other than that, yeah, it's a pretty similar story; I'd never really thought about it that way. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, October 3 2004 20:28
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quote:Actually, they didn't do that until the revolution and declaration of independence, if my historical knowledge is accurate. Exile didn't rebel right away either. When they did, it was a lot worse (American rebels never assassinated the king/queen of England in that time, right?) But then, of course, they'd gotten much more of a raw deal in their monster-infested caves... -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Monday, October 4 2004 12:02
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The causes of the rebellion were entirely different. The American War of Independence was about taxes and whether those not represented in a parliament should have to pay them, whilst Exile was a penal colony rebelling. It's also worth noting that most of the Puritans in America were not actually deported. The majority left because they faced various degrees of disapproval and persecution, but they weren't actually shoved out into the Atlantic. Personally, I see little to no parallel between the two or between Exile and other event. Aside from the revolution and the distance between the two, there's no real link. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Monday, October 4 2004 12:44
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quote:I know it wasn't by force, but I heard that the British Parlament literally funded their voyage. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, October 4 2004 14:53
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I don't think Parliament ever did it, but a number of companies paid people in various ways to come to the New World and settle. I don't think Puritans were ever particularly sought-after (though they were known as industrious people), but they were often quite willing to get away from the detestable, corrupt, and hostile conditions of England in order to build their new cities on hills. —Alorael, who doesn't think Exile parallels anything in the real world at all. Among other things, nobody has ever recreated civilization in caves with the aid of magic (or technology). Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, October 4 2004 17:16
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-DP, who feels that it's a good time to imitate Alo and to state that TM is making too much politix out of Exile just to get the n00b. EDIT: Only imitating in the sense of the sig, not the TM comment. [ Monday, October 04, 2004 17:17: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Monday, October 4 2004 19:23
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The sliths! The sliths and the, uhh, native Americans! That's the missing link! You can thank me now. Hmm? -------------------- ahhahaha i rule u droool Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 59
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 03:12
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This may be somewhat off-topic, but...does anyone else think there's more Libertarianism in Jeff's later games? ;) For example, more in Avernum than in Exile? -Alex, who hastily adds that he isn't bothered by it at all. Posts: 950 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 12:20
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Hmmm…from what little I've seen in Avernum (never registered anything but BoE) I'll heartily agree. The citizens of Exile, not just the tone of the story, seem to be let loose from a totalitarian government and are letting themselves loose, the whole "everything is accepted, as long as you keep to yourself" idea. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 15:41
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Alex, you realize that Alo HATES to have his closing style stolen by someone else? I've found that out after doing it. (actually twice :eek: ) -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 15:51
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You realize that Alex probably knows, considering that he is member number 59 and has over 800 posts? Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 15:52
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I hate double posts... [ Tuesday, October 05, 2004 15:53: Message edited by: Broken Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, October 5 2004 17:22
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Knock it off, both of you. I may be lost in the proverbial slums of senility, but I can still snipe you. —Alorael, who agrees that Avernum expresses libertarian sentiments better than Exile. He doesn't think that Jeff's ideas changed, though. Avernum's new and partially rewritten dialogue just let him put it in more clearly. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 11:41
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I don't think the Avernites had a revolution. A revolution implies that they formed a new kind of government. They just replaced the emperor with a kingship. So this is more like a rebellion with a king in charge. There is no indication of a new type of government other than the triad of mages-- and these really aren't government. The Vahnati seem to have the most advanced form of governance in exile a kind of oligarchy where you reach the top by being transformed into a superior crystalline being. Governance by mageocracy-- the most powerful and oldest mage or warrior makes it to the top. I think that the Sliths are basically tribesmen with a strong priesthood. I am not sure how their priesthood works in running things. However, their archpriest usually sits with the tribal leader. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 11:52
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The Avernites have an official council of city mayors, while the Empire is ostensibly a pure dictatorship. However, as a trip through Valorim or Avernum reveals, local rulers have a great deal of autonomy anywhere. —Alorael, who recalls a mention of elections somewhere in Avernum. Are mayors selected by a vote? Who's eligible? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 12:15
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Valorim is an anomaly- remember, it's under quarantine. Avernum is also, quite obviously, not the same as the Empire- in many ways, it too is a frontier. (I wonder, then, what the caves would be like during E3? Not that I care much- they'd probably be Free and full of Liberty anyway. Far be it from Jeff to take a concept somewhere interesting.) -------------------- 私のバラドですそしてころしたいいらればころす Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 12:16
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I agree that the original concept of Exile would be most similar to England "transporting" undesirables to Australia, presumably never to return. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 13:33
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About slith political systems.... In the two non-Darkling cities in Avernum, Gnass and Lost Bahssikava, there is a chief who seems to have all the political power. There's also a head priest, but we've never seen a situation of dissent or succession of any kind, so I don't think we have any basis for forming ideas of much more than that the chief is nominally the political leader who may or may not actually wield significant power. I have not analyzed the situations in the Darkling slith lands, but to the best of my knowledge, every town works more or less the same way: there is a chief (who is, incidentally, the strongest warrior, but does NOT use magic, signifying that he was never part of the priesthood) who is apparently in charge. Since Sss-Thsss's death caused a turn in the tide of the First Slith War (as opposed to the one in Za-Khazi), we may assume that the chief is intimately connected to military matters, which makes sense because he is the strongest warrior. Basically, then, the chief is the alpha male/female. (We have seen a female chief, haven't we? Have to check on that.) -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 13:45
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quote:A more interesting concept: the Imperial Civil War that almost certainly broke out after the assassination of Hawthorne. Garzahd pretty clearly was the eminence grise in the Empire, but Prazac was so young that there could easily have been dozens of eligible princes and princesses, even up to and including a Crown Prince -- who might have been by the same mother as Prazac. If the war hadn't ended with Garzahd's death, you could have expected his regency to end with some kind of foul play and him becoming Emperor. There's all kind of room in Exile for alternate history, really. Also for politics. The problem is that Jeff's political intrigues are simplistic and unrealistic, and it takes a lot of reading-in to get anything good done. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Wednesday, October 6 2004 15:56
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I don't know about everyone else, but I think libertarianism is a little strange. If everyone was in control of themselves, and there was no central government, and whatever I do is okay as long as I don't hurt someone else, who would do something if someone bothered you?!? You would then defend yourself, bothering the other person, and sending off a chain reaction. I think there needs to be a central government, just not as corrupt as ours is today. And TM, are you a flaming communist anarchist? I have taken hints from Bandits and Bandits 2. I cast Magic Map once, and there was some kind of anarchy message in the corner, what was that about? -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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