Clean Olympics
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| Author | Topic: Clean Olympics |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Tuesday, August 3 2004 12:17
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BTW when talking from pets: I'd like to know, what happened to Athen's stray dogs. The government wanted to poison 15'000 - before the games begin. :( There was a petition, but alas ... edit: I found what happened. Click this only if you want to feel sad. [ Tuesday, August 03, 2004 12:26: Message edited by: spy.there ] -------------------- ^ö^ I was a cannibal for twenty-five years. For the rest I have been a vegetarian. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Tuesday, August 3 2004 15:20
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Well, they could introduce some of the dogs to become stray in other areas. :P Did they mention that any of the dogs were wolves? 15,000. Wow. There's that many stray dogs in Athens. They should put up a billboard: "Want a dog? Snatch one off the street." :P -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, August 3 2004 18:24
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...not exactly a laughing matter, Ben. Very depressing. Choosing image over humanity. Not that it's only Greece, though, which is what this organization doesn't seem to understand. Something must be done, both to stop the killing and to get the dogs and other animals into better habitats, but what? -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon Polaris = joy. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Tuesday, August 3 2004 19:23
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Eh. I first thought this would be some senseless rant against the American hormon-stuffed athletes. As for stray dogs, I guess they're better of dead. Poisoning them seems a bit cruel, but catching them, tagging them and sterilizing them is a mindless idea. -------------------- ahhahaha i rule u droool Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 10:05
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quote:I agree - see the "Koala Cull" topic from a couple moons ago. It's unsurprising to me that Athens has so many strays, given the archeological treasure trove it is. From my semester in Italy, I learned that the merit and magnitude of any archeological site can be determined by the number of stray dogs surrounding it. Most throughout the country had one or two dogs - one managed to fall down a slope behind me while I was giving a presentation at an unearthed villa in southern Italy. Pompeii has a whole pack, complete with an alpha! So given that Athens is home to the Acropolis, it's a small wonder. Of course, it probably has more to do with the number of people that come through these areas with spare food. :D Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 11:30
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It's terrible! Poor dogs... :( I read a similar article about people wanting to kill all the stray cats in Florida because they were catching certain rodents. I didn't find out what happened, but they wanted to catch and kill them instead of TNR(Trap, Neuter, Return) which has been proven to be more effective. :eek: -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 11:31
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TNR doesn't strike me as such a bad idea with people, either. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 11:37
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How does TNR prove more effective? Presumably, the "T" part of TNR and T&K (Trap'n'Kill) would occur at the same rate. Granted, with TNR, you don't have the problem of disposing of the corpses afterward, but is this necessarily worse than letting them die wherever? Given a choice, I think I would be more grateful for a quick and painless death than life on the street without my boys... EDIT: And Alec, would you mind abbreviating your sig a bit more? I certainly would appreciate it. Thanks! [ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:25: Message edited by: am ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 11:54
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I forget the exact statistics, but over a time period of a few years, there were less strays with TNR than T&K(as you so nicely put it). I think it's because each time a female has a litter, at least one usually survives long enough to get to an age where it is physically possible for him/her to mate. And if you factor in that cats usually have two or three litters of kittens a year if you let them(though it's not healthy), and that an outdoor cat's average lifespan is three to six years, and a cat becomes physically possible to mate in about a year, a female cat could have 15 litters in a lifetime! Also, if four kittens survive in each litter(unlikely), then you have 60 kittens in a lifetime. Then you factor in the thousands of stray cats in the world, and you have a really big number of kittens, including what the kittens who have survived are giving birth to. If you alter a cat, then you stop the cat's mating(which also keeps the males a bit safer as they don't get into fights over females) and you stop those litters from being concieved, so therefore you cut down the number of stray cats considerably. Sorry if I bored you with numbers and cat birth information. ;) [ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 11:56: Message edited by: Nicothodes ] -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 11:58
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quote:Okay, okay. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 12:18
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Alec: Thanks! Nic: My point is that it doesn't make sense to me that if both programs rely on trapping animals, one would be more successful than another. A dead animal can't mate, either. EDIT: Also, another pro for T&K is that you don't have to waste time and money trapping animals that have already been neutered/spayed. [ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:24: Message edited by: am ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 12:26
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Yes, but it's creuler to kill an animal than to alter it and for some strange reason it's more effective. If you'd rather kill a stray than alter it, be my guest, but be warned that I will be very, very mad. EDIT: It is very easy to tell if a male cat has been neutered. EDIT2: Sorry, forgot to mention this. If a cat can get used to people they put it up for adoption. That probably counts for some of the statistics. [ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 12:31: Message edited by: Nicothodes ] -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 13:58
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Trap and sterilize works, I'd think, because of the population carrying limit thesis. Namely, a dead stray consumes no food, water, or land, and the food, water, and land which it would otherwise consume can, at least initially, support several kittens. Kittens which would otherwise almost certainly succumb to the elements. Although as the cats grow older there will be a shortage of resources, while some may starve, more will manage on less than they need -- they're cats, they can handle themselves. A neutered cat, on the other hand, consumes resources and does not reproduce. This prevents a small number of kittens from surviving infancy, and thus keeps the cat population further in check. Same applies to dogs, any stray animal you like. A real answer to an excess of strays might well be sterilized housepets, specifically 'outdoor' housepets -- they consume resources without contributing to the gene pool. PS. Take microeconomics. You'll be glad you did. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 17:21
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quote:Andrew, as far as I know, the practice is no quick and painless death. Poisoning is slow and painfull, it kills strays and domesticated pets as well, already neutered dogs as well. The cull people are more dumb temporary workers than specialized to culling. People found a half burned dog, living still. Studies have shown that if you kill 80% of the strays in a location, the remaining 20% will overbreed to take their place. So this policy is not just inhumane and cruel, but ineffective. Stray animals have become a bigger problem in mediterranean countries. In my opinion it's caused by the latin macho-mind of people there, who refuse to neuter their pets. Also, that for they have no money. -------------------- ^ö^ I was a cannibal for twenty-five years. For the rest I have been a vegetarian. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 18:20
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It strikes me that the first reaction of humans to a problem is to destroy whatever it is that bothers them. We are all drowning in blood. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 18:56
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What's always struck me is not so much the bloody-minded first reaction, but the second reaction: to whine about the problem for a little while, do nothing about it, and then forget about it in a week. Not that I'm saying anything. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Wednesday, August 4 2004 18:59
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(Eh, who cares?) [ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 19:12: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 05:05
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I'm going to do as much as I can for animal shelters and strays whenever I'm able. I've already started with the strays. I fed this amazing stray cat for a few weeks until he could be brought in to a no kill shelter. -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 05:24
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I don't know that the limited supply problem explanation for why TNR is better is necessarily sound, though. Consider the following points: a.) No program could probably catch all the strays. b.) An animal, whether T&K'ed or TNR'ed, would die eventually, creating a "space" for a new animal. c.) Animals breed very quickly, whether those still stray or, as spy pointed out, those not fixed for cultural reasons. By the rationale of supply and demand, the only factor limiting the population size is the availability of sustenance, and I'm not aware of any programs taking measures to limit this, not to mention the fact that dogs are very resourceful when it comes to feeding themselves. So your animal population over time would remain the same, it's just a matter of when and how you want them to die. With T&K, you'd get an immediate reduction in population, followed by a fairly rapid return afterward (nine weeks for dogs?) if animals aren't continuously culled. With TNR, you may have a gradual dip in population as fixed animals die off. Ultimately, though, the population will regrow to the size that the environment can sustain. In Athens' case, they wanted to reduce the population immediately for the Olympics, at minimal cost. TNR wouldn't do this to the degree they would want, a.) because it probably wouldn't reduce the population as significantly, b.) they just haven't been that forward-thinking about any aspect of the Olympics, let alone dealing with the stray population, and c.) I reckon it takes more expertise (and therefore, more money) to fix an animal than to euthanize it. Ergo, the cull. What's the permanent solution, then, barring continuously running T&K or TNR operations? Reduce available resources for dogs, or introduce natural predators. The first is more acceptable than the second (things that go for dogs might go for babies, for example), but still a very difficult undertaking. I agree this is all very sad. :( EDIT: Oh, and I agree on sterilizing house pets - it should be mandatory. [ Thursday, August 05, 2004 05:27: Message edited by: am ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 05:36
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If anyone wants to see(for cats) the statistics of TNR over a few years, go to the library and find the back issue of CatFancy that has the article on Florida. -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 06:54
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If you ask me, the whole thing is stupid. You don't see people rallying to trap and kill/neuter all the pidgeons or sea gulls. I say just leave them alone. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 13:38
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quote:that's the point. As I said in the poll topic: that nobody cares anymore is an intrinsic flaw in our society. Thus, it's useful to discuss it here, it's useful when somebody rescues one cat (oops ... Nicothodes' karma increased), it's helpful to engage in campaigns. Every little step to more responsibility is important. We must learn to live a moral life again. Read Peter Singers "Practical Ethics" to have a better explanation than I could ever give. -------------------- ^ö^ I was a cannibal for twenty-five years. For the rest I have been a vegetarian. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Thursday, August 5 2004 17:32
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quote:Actually, that wasn't a response to the topic -- I care about it very much. I was just editing out a particularly vitriolic post. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Friday, August 6 2004 06:39
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:D ... then it was a direct hit by chance ... I know that you care all the time, you have an ethical concept like me. I wanted to agree your and Alec's posts. It scares me that people's majority doesn't care. For a lot of things not. There is no moral code anymore outside of religion. And Andrew, ADoS: agreed all -------------------- ^ö^ I was a cannibal for twenty-five years. For the rest I have been a vegetarian. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Friday, August 6 2004 06:44
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I don't see how anyone couldn't care about this. Animals are my life, as you can probably tell from some of my posts. -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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