Republican, Democrat, etc.
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Monday, November 17 2003 06:32
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Whoa! Hold on, I missed something 'back a bit in the thread. There were less than 50,000 U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War. Where is this number of 200K coming from? Did I just miss something important? Big difference between 50K and 200K. In fact, the two bloodiest wars in the history of the U.S., the Civil War and WW2, are the only wars that enter the 200K territory. Some perspective on wars for each generation of Americans (figues listed are actual combat-related deaths, not counting accidents, died later of wounds, and so forth): Revolutionary war: < 5K War of 1812: < 3K Mexican War: < 2K Civil War: 140K Spanish-American War: < 1K WW1: 54K WW2: 292K Korea: 34K Vietnam: 48K -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Monday, November 17 2003 09:20
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Hm - given his role in escalating Nam, are we saying JFK was the 20th century's worst US president? Or Lincoln in the 19th century, based on ACW casualties?   The stupidity of the causus belli, the cupidity of the instigator, and the degree of blatant lying to get there should also be factors, in which case Bush is way up there with Iraq.Of course US presidents can be stupid. Reagan 'McDonald' was demented in office and slept through most of his briefings. It's just he supposedly the 'great communicator' to the fundie bedrock of his support. Just another 'front man', like it says on the tin. Bush Jnr is in the White House now as his father's son, with his father's team and interests behind him pulling all the strings - jobs for the boys, right? (Note I don't call Bush Snr. cowardly or stupid--in fact, he fought bravely in WW2, unlike Reagan--though incoherence seems to run in the family). BTW, Bush says he wants to meet British war widows to tell them their husbands didn't die in vain in Iraq when he's over here. Presumably not invited to this cynical photo-op are those filling the TV studios saying how Blair and Bush conned them over WMD and how we should now get the heck out of Iraq. (Never mind all those vets crippled by 'non-existent' Gulf War Syndrome either...) In fact, Bush's gesture is doubly cynical now he's saying he wants to dump Iraq just prior to next year's election... Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3605
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written Monday, November 17 2003 11:35
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how very intresting this topic is... (no sarcasm intended). The main parties in England Conservative (right) and Labour (left) are actually pretty central now and i wouldn't have mutch trouble voting for either. Some peole hate Tony blair because he followed America in the war. i think the reason he did this was to "spread" his economic bets. Peopel in the UK know that Tony wants the UK to join the European Union, but he knows that this is an unpopulour move (i like it personally) and is therefore following america so that we can get scraps from the table, metaphorically speaking. For the record i am mostly left wing appart from some crazy ideas (pay the goverment as you work and when you retire theyll give you a pension of more than you put in(they invest the money for you)). On President Bush i think the majority of people in england hate him because tghe media tells them to. I hate him too, but i like to think that i have a *slightly* more educated view than most (ie people who read the Sun  ). Bush is on the throne because his dad was and he will follow whatever the people behind will tell him to do. tell me if im wrong.p.s. dont be rude plz  -------------------- "Is that smell glandular, or do you wallow in your own filth?" - Last Words of Fredrick the Idiot Posts: 358 | Registered: Monday, October 27 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, November 17 2003 11:57
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quote:We have that in Australia; it's called superannuation. There are two major problems with it, which is that it's taxed (although at a lower rate than ordinary income) and sometimes the government invests poorly, which means you generally don't end up better off than you would have if you'd invested it yourself. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 87
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written Monday, November 17 2003 13:06
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unless you are stink as an investor. Um, there is a difference between casualties and deaths, too, look it up. Why vote for anyone if they are all going to screw up? -------------------- Tip of the Day: #13 Stand clear the closing door. That's treason. (THNIK)(Peculiar James, FP productions co, inc) Posts: 816 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, November 17 2003 13:40
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http://www.funmac.com/attachment.php?s=f81c5a7b091e5b8ff81f15688de01c30&postid=20792 EDIT: Although I hold a few qualms regarding his actions in terms of Pearl Harbor. [ Monday, November 17, 2003 13:45: Message edited by: Haamana ] -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1723
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written Monday, November 17 2003 14:41
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3 things. You are correct. (whoever said it) There were about 50k dead in Nam. That's why I corrected myself to casualties, not deaths. Casualties include wounded in action statistics. I'm not trying to say American lives are more valuable than others. The figures were just more convenient, and we were talking about it in relation to the US. Last, I did forget to respond to his 6th point. In essence, all any election is is a popularity contest. But, Bill from down the street who builds birdhouses for a living and didn't finish 9th grade isn't going to be president anytime soon. They actually need some qualifications. Not that the system is perfect, but it's not as bad as you spin it. -------------------- "... and approximately one sea turtle." Posts: 277 | Registered: Tuesday, August 13 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, November 17 2003 15:08
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Geez. I just got back to this topic. Kids, learn from this what happens when you make a bad post… -------------------- I want my Desert Plah back, (Drakey, check your PM's.) "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, November 17 2003 16:23
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quote:Mortification, I love you. We need to have you around as Mr. Numbers from now on  -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, November 18 2003 12:55
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Everyone should read Haamana's post about Bush Snr. Very cosmic! Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 04:13
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...I was only re-stating what Thuryl said. And what makes it "cosmic" (or am I being opaque in not recognizing a typo)? -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 11:45
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He meant the image. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 11:51
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I don't know what you got, but when I bought up the link, it was a swirmy, kaleadoscope-type pattern. Maybe no one else did and I'm just losing it. Oh dear.  An update on the Bush visit thing, now 'the Evil has landed'. Seems he got the hint about dissident servicemen's widows and will be meeting those bereaved by 9/11 instead (maybe including those from Morgan Stanley Dean Witter whose account I used to work on when I was at the bank). He still needs to watch it - protesting relatives kept him away from Ground Zero this year's commemoration (I think mainly over his exploitation of their grief to bring in anti-terrorist legislation, leading to their harassment by the Homelands Security gestapo), and remember Jim Swyre and his campaign around the Locharbie bombing. He thought it was the result of a combination of DIA 'oversight' and Syrian malice, rather than the Libyans of the official version. To prove his point, he put a 'bomb' made out of marzipan on a transAtlantic flight. BTW, the police are definitely trying to suppress coverage of anti-Bush demos on a local level, mainly by intimidating reporters turning up to cover them. To their credit--and my surprise--this has only led to more and more sympathetic publicity. With half the Met on overtime in London tomorrow, no doubt we'll see more such 'democratic policing' then... Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 15:59
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Hey, somebody's got to keep track of all of the numbers. An interesting point on casualty rates versus combat deaths: WW2 was the real turning point for battlefield wound survivability (this was mainly due to the widespread use of penicillin late in the war, and the improved hospitals. In Vietnam over 95% of casualties that survived long enough to get to the hospital from the battlefield eventually made it home. Another interesting point is to look at the deaths on both sides of a conflict. During Vietnam, millions of people are estimated to have died on both sides. Recent estimates of combined deaths in the Iraq war are around 25,000 or so. One could argue that improved weapon technology has apparently made wars less deadly rather than more as would seem common sense. I wonder how long it will be until unmanned drone technology evolves to the point where we will just have our drones versus their drones, and the loser of the robot war just agrees to give up, no lives lost on either side. Our lifetimes perhaps? -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 16:02
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Perhaps no lives lost on the front lines. But there will definitely still be bombing runs -- after all, there'll still be missiles, and there'll still be black flag campaigns -- and there will definitely still be people who starve, who are tortured to death, and who are blown to pieces by the 'enemy'. Overall, I think that 'robot wars' sound like a nice idea on paper, much like objectivism -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Wednesday, November 19 2003 17:27
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With that, I agree; "robot wars" are much better on paper than in real life. And anyway, what about terrorists? They're not going to send their robots in just to destroy other robots, believe me... As for the rest, I had no idea Spiderweb had gotten this big; it took me 30 minutes to read everything from my last post to the end of Alec's most recent post, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were already another post before mine by the time I'm done with this. (Yeah, yeah, I know, I've already said that before... but really, it didn't seem this big before.) Alec: I support big government, graduated income tax (i.e. more tax for the rich, not less), homeland improvement (schools, medicine, etc.), and I actually do sympathize with the poor. Yes, of course, compared to the average Spiderwebber, I am a fanatic right-wing Christian fundamental. But the average Spiderwebber is further left than the average American, and the average human, probably, so you really can't judge by that. On the Political Compass, I am liberal (when I asked if anyone knew of other tests that could help, you mocked me for it, implying that I was a liberal in denial.) Basically, I am a moderate. I lean to the right, sure, but I am still a moderate. You may be insulted by my implacation that you eat propaganda, but you apparently didn't consider that I might be insulted by your implacation that I have not changed at all since I left Spiderweb, or since I first came to Spiderweb, even. I have changed, hopefully for the better; please do not assume that I am on the verge of a repeat of my rant about anime. I will respond to the more important arguments tomorrow, if I get the chance, but for now I'll just say this: It's not a lie if you beleive it's true. Bush honestly believed that Saddam had WMD's. No, he did not have enough proof; yes, he should have checked his facts. But he really believed that Saddam had WMD's, based on several factors including Saddam's unwillingness to allow international inspectors the access they required in the 90's, and the widely-known massacres of his own people. Bush beleived it, I believed it, and a surprisingly large number (to some) of others believed it too, Bush or no Bush. Maybe he was wrong, maybe he was right, but he did not lie. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, November 22 2003 16:56
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So I suppose it's not just my right, but my duty, to gun down someone (as well as everyone in the same room as them) who I think might be plotting to blow up the White House, even if I have absolutely no evidence or proof? EDIT: Hey, it's only 3 days old. Ham might still be good at that age. [ Saturday, November 22, 2003 16:57: Message edited by: Saishuu Heiki Custer ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, November 23 2003 18:40
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Mass graves, Alec. Bush assumed that people would be more in favor of war if he made it seem like we, the American citizens, not they, the Iraqi citizens, were threatened; maybe he was right. Whether or not Americans would have been less supportive of a war to save foreigners is not the issue, though; Bush made a mistake, he emphasized the wrong problem. Rather than presenting the fact that Saddam has killed thousands of his own people and his neighbors for nothing more than looking at him the wrong way, Bush decided to present the assumption that Saddam currently has (or had, at the time the war started) WMD. The former he could have presented as it is, the latter he had to greatly exaggerate. He performed the task of removing an evil dictator who kills for the joy of killing, and I agree with him on that. The problem is that he went about it the wrong way, which basically turned world opinion against us, aside from the normal resent-the-guy-who's-stronger-and-in-control mentality of most people. That is one of the reasons I don't call myself a Republican, or a Bush-supporter, even though I was, and still am, pro-war. EDIT: I say "greatly exaggerate", and not "fabricate", because of the fact that Saddam kicked inspectors out in the 90's. If he really had nothing bad, what was he afraid of? I know you've said that he did that just to make people afraid, but that makes no sense either; he's smart enough to realize that there are people stronger than him who could, and would, kill him out of fear. Whether or not he had them when Bush said he did, I don't know; but just because we haven't found them yet doesn't mean that they do not exist now, and never did exist. If he did indeed have them and then dismantled them to avoid conflict, wouldn't he provide proof of that to the world? The alternative to all this is that he's suicidal, but that doesn't seem all that likely to me. [ Sunday, November 23, 2003 18:49: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 87
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written Monday, December 1 2003 14:01
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i always thought that war was something you were forced to do, but whatever. -------------------- Tip of the Day: #13 Stand clear the closing door. That's treason. (THNIK)(Peculiar James, FP productions co, inc) Posts: 816 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |