D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) - Influences? Players? Opinions?
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| Author | Topic: D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) - Influences? Players? Opinions? |
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Warrior
Member # 2155
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written Monday, August 11 2003 08:21
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Looking at everything Spiderweb Software produces; one is brought deeply into the realm of RPGs. Possibly, the name most synonymous with the very concept of RPGs is Dungeons and Dragons. Thus it came to me the curiosity of relation between Avernum/Exile/Geneforge/Nethergate players and Dungeons and Dragons and the correlation of the opinions therein. Personally, I do not play D&D directly. I have a great number of friends who do (some bordering obsessive) but I look at the hand drawn math involved and I suddenly can see how a great deal of religious people condemn it as Satanic. It’s mental masochism. It’s raping your brain with a calculator and a set of eighty-five dozen sided dice. I do however, play Neverwinter Nights, a D&D based computer game for the likely very few who have not heard of it. I don’t mind math just so long as I don’t have to do it. ---Your Dungeons and Dragons pondering Maniac, Necris Omega -------------------- Sanity is a relative concept. And like most my relatives, I rarely see it. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." ~ Albert Einstein Posts: 168 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3124
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written Monday, August 11 2003 09:05
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quote: Interesting. Math is what makes it satanic to people? D&D, as well as other RPG's, only seem difficult to those who have not tried. I always thought they were complicated until I sat down and played one. One needs to have a good GM/DM though... -------------------- The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'. Larry Hardiman Posts: 110 | Registered: Thursday, June 19 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3329
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written Monday, August 11 2003 09:20
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I have played D&D a few times but i don't have much time now because i have already started school. -------------------- Hello.Nice To Meet You.Call Me OM.Bye. Posts: 64 | Registered: Monday, August 11 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Monday, August 11 2003 09:47
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The satanic issue is the fact that some of the books have pentagrams and such on them, and deal with demons and elves, and other creatures that some feel to be satanic in nature. [ Monday, August 11, 2003 09:49: Message edited by: Kakashi ] -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, August 11 2003 10:20
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I fail to see anything Satanic about elves. -------------------- My BoE graphics archive is finally getting started! Yay! I hope you like my graphics.My BoE Graphics An absurdly fun Flash game- Refridgerator Raid! --------- The Lyceum- A board for BoE. Yes it is. Really. Stop staring at me! Stop it, I say! Oh, sorry... Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, August 11 2003 10:23
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I guess those 'some' are the people also believing Harry Potter to be satanic propaganda...  - Influences Players Opinions_files/tongue.gif) About dice algebra - calculating the average of 23d5+40 looks imposing, but you can do it in your head: ((5+1)/2 * 23 ) + 40 = 109. I use that alot when I play ADOM, where the damage values are also given in XdY+Z form. Useful for making BoE scenarios too, because it uses the notation too. EDIT: ADOS - Elves? Not Satanic?  - Influences Players Opinions_files/eek.gif) Everything in fantasy books is satanic, hear me, everything! We must burn the evil stuff, BURN IT!!!111  - Influences Players Opinions_files/biggrin.gif) [ Monday, August 11, 2003 10:26: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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One Thousand Slimy Things
Member # 66
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written Monday, August 11 2003 11:59
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The only satanic thing about roleplaying games are the Dungeon Masters. Their brains work on some purely evil, diabolic level known only to their kind. -------------------- KhothMk2: You don't get 72 virgin camels though Posts: 995 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Monday, August 11 2003 12:32
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Arctic, thank you.  - Influences Players Opinions_files/wink.gif) DMing is really quite simple because players are eager to believe anything you say. A lot of the time, I sit down with merely an idea of a blueprint of a skeleton seen through a fog of an adventure, and draw the map as the party goes through a dungeon. Also, tweaking rolls is incredibly simple when using optional rules. The first edition DnD books are somewhat Satanically illustrated. A party of adventurers fighting a demon who's preparing to eat a scantily-clad warrior-lady is depicted on the front cover of the first edition player's handbook. Math, especially probability and statistics, helps, but isn't entirely imperative to being a player. And the dice are nothing special, since it isn't very hard to toss a piece of plastic, no matter how many sides it has. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, August 11 2003 13:18
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At least in real life the dice are limited to 4,6,10,20 sides and a few other euclidian shapes - no such luck with computer games... And a bit of statistics can be rather helpful for the player. Picture this (this is an actual example from a series known as "The Dark Eye" in Germany, I think it's "Arcania" or something in English): You're in a cavern with a *huge* treasure, but its guardian, an undefeatable demigod, doesn't allow you to take anything. He does offer you to play a little game though. The game runs as follows: You get a large heap (100) of valuable coins set before you. You have to pull at least 33 out of the heap. In the heap there are 3 which are enchanted to trigger a deadly doortrap beneath you when drawn. Do you take the offer? (Answer: No you wouldn't, because you have about a 28% chance to survive. I actually wrote a program on my calculator to figure that out. )-------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Monday, August 11 2003 16:38
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And the complicated math stuff and constant arguing between players is why I never play D&D... Actually that and I've never had the oportunity to. Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2155
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written Monday, August 11 2003 19:16
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I think I have been misinterpreted by a handful of people. When I say that I can understand how some religious factions can see D&D Satanic, I don't mean I agree with them, nor do I mean they're even right. I was meaning that the extreme amounts of math that can possibly be involved reminded me of some angsty-goth emo-kid cutting themselves, and was joking about the implications of this. In other words, I was using it as a metaphor to express my overall hatred for math. Now, I suppose some of you could convince me that D&D doesn't require large amounts of math/algebra to play, and I can see that a little in Neverwinter Nights. However, when I mentioned I have friends obsessed with the game, I mean in such a way that they subject themselves to what I see as insane amounts of freelance algebra. True story: I see one of them at their desk, frantically scribbling down literally pages of calculations and beating the living snot out of his expensive graphic calculator. Now, this would not surprise me - this friend of mine is an extreme math buff taking Advanced Quantum Four Dimensional Super calculus. I go up to him and ask how his homework is going, and he replies, "Homework? No, I'm just trying to figure out what of these two items is better for my D&D character." This of course scared me. From this moment my resolve to join my friends in the realm of D&D burnt up in a flurry of visions of myself in some high school math class, twitching with boredom until my head explodes and interrupts the amazing man-without-a-personality droning on at the board about some Quadratic Formula. I'm not a math-phobic, and I am capable of passing math without much intellectual strain. However, math has been nothing more but mental torture in its sheer repetitiveness and the seeming pointlessness of it all. I am more than certain there is an all-powerful, all meaningful use for it - I simply have yet to find this use to justify it. ---Your Math/Algebra/Geometry/Trigonometry/Calculus avoiding maniac, Necris Omega. -------------------- Sanity is a relative concept. And like most my relatives, I rarely see it. "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." ~ Albert Einstein Posts: 168 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Monday, August 11 2003 20:53
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Young one, Math is so damn important and useful beyond those who repeat it to boredom. Bad teaching has killed too many abilities and interest. I was lucky and have always good math teachers. I am pretty far up in college math. I have completed all of the required courses for a minor in math, including advanced Calc and Linear Algebra. It is hella useful. Chemistry and physics are based on this math. Engineering is based on it too. Not to mention computer science, which needs Linear Algebra to understand it beyond a language level. The full use of graphing calculator is hard to do. I know of only a few who have done it. I am not one, although I can use mine far more then any of you realise is possible. Math is interesting with a good teacher. The history, the use, the human side of it is utterly fascinating. You can learn alot about the human race by studing mathematicians. You got The Man, Euler, who wrote some much no one has read them all (including him, he went blind and still kept writing), and all of his writing was brillant. He took calculus and made it the most powerful analytical tool we have ever seen. He also partied it up with the key people of the 18th century. You also got Newton, who invented Calc, became filthy rich and went a touch crazy, while being enshrine in English culture. Then there are people you will never here off, but include a brillant mind whose theory's was a tax collector of the Estates Général by day, and lost his head in the French Revolution due to that. A daughter of another offical of the Estates Général, Sophie Germain, became one of the great women in math. She was one of the keys to material strength theories. Enough to be key to the eiffel tower. The subjects, done right, are beautiful. Geometry teachs you to draw and understand shapes. Algebra teachs you to present an unknown from a story problem and solve for it. Trig teachs you how to solve triangles and used that to infer knowledge about everything. Calculus is the study of tiny changes. It is science incarnate. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Master Jeweller
Member # 409
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written Tuesday, August 12 2003 06:16
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Your calculator-wielding friend seems to much of a munchkin, or power-gamer. Of course D&D has a tendency to turn players into power-gamers, but for casual players the only math you'll ever have to do is calculate if (some value) + (roll of 1d20) >= (target value). That's so simple I hesitate to even call it math. Roleplaying isn't about rules. If it was, it would be called roll-playing. If you have a good storyteller he can just tell you to 'roll a die and tell me the value' and then he'll grin at you and not tell you what the die was for. I've had gaming nights in which I didn't even touch a single die. As a side point I object to using D&D as an example for roleplaying in general, as there are other RPGs out there, and lots of them. In order from less to more math-and-dice-heavy, some examples would be Amber DRPG, Simplex, Buffy, FUDGE, Whitewolf (aka Vampire, Werewolf,Mage etc), D&D, EarthDawn GURPS and SWORD. As to which is better, that's a matter of opinion. I tend to stick with rules-light games as they have more atmosphere. -------------------- Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heilighthum! Deine Zauber binden wieder, was die Mode streng getheilt, Alle Menschen werden Brüder, wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt. Pieter Simoons aka Radiant Official Crystal Shard and SubTerra webpage Posts: 798 | Registered: Monday, December 17 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, August 12 2003 07:25
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I fail to see what power-gaming has to do with doing a bit of math to figure out what course of action is to your advantage - it'd be the equivalent of the character trying to decide what to do, only in numerical terms since all the stuff like HP etc is quantified into numbers. But I agree with you on dice not being necessary for the game; they should be an aid and not a binding factor. For example, in those online RP boards, they don't need any dice or maths in order to write good stories. Dice are not necessary when they're replaced by creativity, and by the readiness to accept that sometimes things will go wrong - demigod players in forum rps are people who have to be reminded of their mortality by dice. And complex dice systems are absolutely annoying when they're on paper-and-pen RPs rather than computer games, because in a computer game you have a calculator available, and since you will usually be in single-player mode, endlessly calculating dice and comparing weapons does not earn you impatient glares from fellow players... -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2242
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written Tuesday, August 12 2003 18:30
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Math? Satanic? There's no connection there... or is there... Anyways, you want Satanic eh? Try beating the Darksun Final battle with 2 gladiators, 1 Cleric and 1 Psionic (useless!) on anything other than the easy difficulty setting. Now that there is Satanic. -------------------- "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes back into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche "There is no dodging the quad laser." -Ugnagnok Posts: 469 | Registered: Thursday, November 14 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, August 12 2003 21:56
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I'm old enough to remember D&D (before it was even AD&D). There's a lot of (A)D&D in SW, the way the character classes work and even an assassination skill. Of course, as pure interaction between players, it was a lot more open-ended than a computer game - but the baroque 100s-page rulebooks and endless lists sadly had enough nerd appeal to draw in the power-gamers and petty bickerers chastised above ("but on p.112 of the DM's Manual it says..."). Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, August 12 2003 22:42
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I've played D&D once or twice. I wouldn't play it again if you put a gun to my head -- the baroque 100s-of-pages manuals X mentioned give too much fuel to poor DMs and players and too little leeway to good ones. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 10:51
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But sometimes you can get together with a small group of interested gamers and a really good DM, and then everything goes really well. The only trouble is, once you've weeded out the power-gamers and the bickerers, you've only got an handful of people left. One thing I find, though, is that most people tend to bicker and power-play because they view it as a game to win. The thing about RPs is that the object isn't winning, it's living. That's why the best players are often actually the ones who irritate the DM by stopping places for ages because they've stumbled on some hot money-making prospect which is much more interesting than the save-the-world-from-destruction plotline the DM is waiting to spring on them in the next town along... -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 10:53
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Since when does anyone sane actually bother using the manuals in D&D, fornicator with Irish women? Hey, Drakey, if you edit my posts again, it's all coming out. This is a warning. [ Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:00: Message edited by: Pete, King Of The Detectives ] Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 13:24
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About math... Galois was the coolest mathemetician. He wrote everything he knew on one piece of paper and got killed in a duel the next day. Andrew Wiles is a genius, and that's that. And in my D&D group, there are no power gamers. We meet once a month, or a bit less frequently, and don't think about the game in between. It's just a fun little social gathering. And a good DM, in my opinion, should bend the rules a bit to get the game moving along faster (dice rolling can get tedious). -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 13:48
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OOC: quote:Ahh, perhaps you've also read Fermat's Last Theorum and The Code Book? -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain, ohhh, I'm tired of the strain and the pain. Lair of Blades Wise Forums Desperance Polaris Bash Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3247
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 15:48
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I can honestly say I've been playing dnd and other rp games for close two decades; and I have yet to kill a cat. Yet being the key word. -------------------- Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Posts: 19 | Registered: Monday, July 21 2003 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 17:03
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I need to do something interesting with that, then. Bait the players into killing innocent animals, goes against their alignment... excellent... And yes, it was Fermat's Enigma that I read. Quite a wonderful book! -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3344
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written Wednesday, August 13 2003 17:09
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quote:Ah, there are many a DnD player who could take a lesson from you. DnD rots your mind if you're not careful. One of my exfriends played DnD at school where it was out lawed by the teachers. So to escape the teachers they played on the floor of the boys bathroom. Obsesive? One day he came up to me and began telling me something about this great new sword he found behind a Gorkion Blaknar with a Sutmer Betroit infused in it (or something along those lines, I don't know, I don't speak loser). I kneed him so hard he now steral. So you see, if you let meaningless, mindless gaming run your life, You get whats coming do you.  - Influences Players Opinions_files/rolleyes.gif) -------------------- When we drink we get loaded, when we get loaded we sleep, when we sleep we commit no sin. So... lets all get drunk and go to heaven! Posts: 3 | Registered: Wednesday, August 13 2003 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Thursday, August 14 2003 17:07
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And yet you post on this forum? -_- -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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