Happy Fourth of July!
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, July 15 2003 12:46
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I'd like to emphasise that Loyalists in northern Ireland consider themselves British, not Irish, and most are descendants of Elizabeth's plantation in the 15th century, who mainly came from Scotland. The difference is not ethnic though, it's religious. In northern Ireland, 15th century questions about transubstantiation are still hot topics liable to lead to angry words, even blows. For many Loyalists, the Pope is still "the Antichrist" or the Book of Revelation. Though shootings are now rare due to the ceasefire, most communities are physically segregated by 'peace lines', two-storey high corregated iron walls across streets to stop stone-throwing. Door checks at pubs are also very tight to stop massacres, as has happened in the past. There is 'demographic warfare', where it is almost as hard to find condom dispensers in Protestant areas as Catholic ones and contraception is condemned by religious leaders of both communities as giving the other electoral and economic advantages in the next generation. Many poorer Protestants in the province--and there are many, with the highest unemployment in the British Isles in northern Ireland--are particularly angry that anti-discrimination legislation means Catholics get jobs that were once exclusively theirs (eg. at the shipyards) and this is what is stopping further peace talks, opening the way for new sectarian violence by all concerned. I think US Marines on the streets of Belfast would be better peacekeepers than British Paras. Due to Catholic emigration to the US during the Famine and the rise of such immigrants during the last century and a half, there's a lot more sympathy for Republicanism there and so the US is more likely to be seen as neutral. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Tuesday, July 15 2003 13:48
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A good overview X. But the US as Neutral? Anyone who volunteers for duty in Ulster in the US is gonna be pro-IRA. While we general like our British pals, being our best allies for some many years and not losing like our other great allies, the French, there is still a rememberance of Ireland and of Revolution. It's faint, and it's mostly backwater, but we remember stories of the plunder of Ireland by the British, how the mismanagement lead to the escaping of the Irish in the 1800's. The largest group Americans' are desended from are Irish, then Germans, then English. Blood ties are greater to Ireland. Thats why the greatest funders of IRA abroad are Americans, particually in New England. Now the funds are being watched to lessen the funds that get to the radicals. The radicals are now receiving most funds thru mafia actions. Same with many radical ulster groups. Its a mob war as much as it is cultural. Though I do like the idea of Americans helping out in Ulster. It might just work. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, July 15 2003 16:10
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As do I, although the British might take that the wrong way... they tend to side with Northern Ireland, for obvious reasons, and as you said, the U.S. would most like be more inclined to take the side of Southern Ireland... so maybe some kind of join effort? More Americans than British, of course, because the radical IRA members might not appreciate British soldiers having control over them... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Tuesday, July 15 2003 17:56
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Actually the stories of the Potato famine is not faint in alot of Irish American homes. Alot of Irish Americans still keep the tales of the potato famine close to there hearts, eventhough it happend a long time ago. See the potato famine is there heritage, and unlike accints Heritage does not fade away overe the years. I would know this for the stories of my Italian heritage have not faded away over the years. So I wouldn't call the stories of the potato Famine, "Faint" and "Back Water". -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, July 16 2003 01:08
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It's worth bearing in mind a lot of people calling themselves Irish-American are actually of Protestant heritage. In fact, the so-called Scots-Irish were amongst the first settlers in the US. Hill 'billies' were typically endentured labour, the 'billy' deriving from William of Orange, who I mentioned re. 14th July. So not so much worry about US neutrality on the Irish question then.... Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Wednesday, July 16 2003 08:44
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Oh, there a more than a few Irish Catholic. In fact most US Catholics, excluding those of hispanic decent, are Irish catholic. The rest have only a bit of Irish, and the Protestant culture over took them. Actually, the Scot-Irish are much smaller than true Irish. The Scot-Irish are mostly Southerners, while Yankees are Irish. Due to the politics of the times, few Scot-Irish ever moved North of the Ohio, or East of the Mississippi. You go out west, some says they are Irish, they don't mean only for a little while. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Wednesday, July 16 2003 09:07
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What about the Italian Catholics, the Italian Catholics make up a good portion of the U.S population. And anyway even though there are more Irish Catholics than English Protestants, The English Protestants have more power. Face it The U.S is basically ran bye the English Americans. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Wednesday, July 16 2003 09:12
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The US is run by W.A.S.P.s? Well, i never! Does the pope know about this? -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Wednesday, July 16 2003 11:51
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Go 'way, Rentboy =] Johnny, he did say Hispanic, not just Irish. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Thursday, July 17 2003 09:44
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The armed factions are to a great degree now more supported by drug money than by donations, although I'm sure America is still a significant source of income for the IRA (the Real IRA, responsible for the Omagh bombing, wasn't designated a banned terroist group until after September 11.) The situation's better than it has been, but I forsee the bloodshed lasting for a while yet, and it'll be generations before the hatred is gone completely. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, July 17 2003 16:23
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...Which is why we're discussing how to stop it. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Friday, July 18 2003 03:34
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Yes, but what I'm saying is that too many people have too much invested in it for a complete stop to be brought to it. The best we can hope for is a gradual decrease in violence, as less youngsters join violent groups and the old hardliners die off. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Friday, July 18 2003 07:20
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But doesn't growing up with a giant fence in front of your house sort of preclude that option? -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Friday, July 18 2003 15:10
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Not to mention the rocks being thrown at you on your way to school, and the car bomb that killed your neighbors... and the hardliner parents... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Friday, July 18 2003 17:54
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Well, 14th July was ages ago, so I guess I should put away my bowler hat, sash and king Billy sword. _files/wink.gif) I never was a very good Orangeman, as the above should illustrate to anyone knowing any. Perhaps I'll bring some Klan robes out next, if anyone can think of a good date... EDIT: My point is that the marching season, as epitomised by 14th July, is hardly a respectful way to celebate national identity--i.e. symbolically at least (but occassionally literally), marching all over the faces of the minority community--and this sort of supremacist mentality needs addressing if coexistence anywhere is possible.Strict non-discrimination legislation and increased prosperity only go so far to reduce community tensions. There are always ways around the legislation (e.g. some family names are inherently Catholic, as are some addresses, so there's always the opportunity for disguised discrimination) and supporteers of the paramilitaries in both communities are typically always the poorest and most alienated who benefit most marginally from general prosperity, if at all. I really think that in the end demographics will tell more than economics, though loyalties often follow money, especially among the more well-off and educated who tend to be more 21st (well, not 16th) century about religious questions. A generation or two from now, the border will be abolished electorally, at which Sinn Fein will lose its rationalle to more well-off and educated liberal parties and carry on as a Leftist rump much as the IRSP is now in the North. I do think the South could make some effort towards secularising their own state though, especially re. liberalising laws on divorce and reproductive issues. [ Friday, July 18, 2003 17:59: Message edited by: X ] Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Friday, July 18 2003 19:02
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quote:But he never said Italian. Last I checked Italian Catholics are a good portion of the US population. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Friday, July 18 2003 22:37
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They are intermarried with the Irish and Germans. Like me. Few pure anything exist, and due to the point of enterance into the US, the Italians have mostly merged, its just Italian feature are dominant genetically. Like dark hair and eyes and more tanned skin. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Saturday, July 19 2003 06:17
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Hmm, but alot of the Irish have married Italians or Germans, but you said the Irish Catholics are a big part of the population. And bye the way, I am not pure Italian, but that has nothing to do with marriage. See my ancestors went frome Countrie to Countrie, it was the Viking Gene in them. My Ancestors where Vikings, so they wen't frome countrie to countrie. Funnie thing is The Vikings wern't really anything,they came frome diffrent countries. They where like earlie Pirates, and some have compared them to very early Hells Angels on boats. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Saturday, July 19 2003 09:45
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Point of order. The Vikings didn't just come from one country, which is why there's no country called Vikingland. They did come from Scandinavia. And they weren't known for the nomad life. They travelled from country to country mostly for the purposes of pillage, or occasionally settling. But I don't think they had a racial tendency to explore. It's just that when you live in rather infertile soil conditions and it's a struggle to make ends meet, sailing off across the North Sea seems like a much better idea. After all, it's very likely that most of the people reading this board had Viking ancestors. When you consider that they travelled from Iran to Newfoundland, and they did this a millenium ago, their descendants are going to be dispersed all over the world. OK, pointless, probably inaccurate and unrewarding digression over. Pray continue. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 463
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written Saturday, July 19 2003 17:52
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Russia was named for the "Rus", who were Vikings who traveled in from eastern Scandinavia. A Emperor of the Byzantium in Constantinople used Viking mercenaries as bodyguards(because he couldn't trust anyone else). -------------------- Let the soul trading begin. Posts: 431 | Registered: Monday, December 31 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Sunday, July 20 2003 06:42
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The Vikings did influence England a lot - both holding the North in the late-Dark Ages to such an extend that the accent (and immunity to irony) there is still Scandanavian, and through the Norman ('Northman') conquest which first imposed feudalism. They were still knocking around as mercenaries on the fringes of the Med in the early-1400s. I think a combination of late conversion to Christianity, the Mongol invasion of Russia, and the rise of Islamic sea power really did for them as a force in the world though. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Sunday, July 20 2003 10:18
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True, but their influence on England was less than on other parts of the British Isles, like the Orkneys, Shetlands, Western Isles and the Isle of Man. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Sunday, July 20 2003 11:31
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Its even more when you release that the vikings seized chunks of France, making them the ones who the English Nobles are desended from. For instance, Everyone named Rogers is desended from a viking who first conquered some med isles, then moved to Northen France, where his decendeds helped Norman take England. Most Nobles are like that in lineage. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Sunday, July 20 2003 14:07
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True, but surname doesn't tell you that much. Plenty of ancestors who didn't give you your surname. For example, half of Europe's royalty (and also Frederick Barbarossa, the man who took Jerusalem) are descended from the prophet Muhammad. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Tuesday, July 22 2003 12:27
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I wish I knew more about The Dark Ages. But I do know that the Norms did take over Britain in some time in the The MidAges. They took Britain frome The Anglo Saxons,which took the land from a King, I forgot his name. But I didn't know the Norms where of Viking Decent. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |