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Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 12:50 Profile #15
I meant the CVS part of the Summary Page.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 12:50 Profile #15
I meant the CVS part of the Summary Page.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 11:59 Profile #13
Concerning SourceForge's CVS:

I believe they are currently upgrading their CVS servers, which is why there are no evident CVS adds/commits.

[ Monday, February 07, 2005 18:59: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 11:59 Profile #13
Concerning SourceForge's CVS:

I believe they are currently upgrading their CVS servers, which is why there are no evident CVS adds/commits.

[ Monday, February 07, 2005 18:59: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 10:52 Profile #10
quote:
Originally written by High-Voltage Opinion:


>>The only SF project I could find was boaedremake. ...?
It is the site of the 3D editors as well as the remake of the BoA Editor. That is the correct link.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Monday, February 7 2005 10:52 Profile #10
quote:
Originally written by High-Voltage Opinion:


>>The only SF project I could find was boaedremake. ...?
It is the site of the 3D editors as well as the remake of the BoA Editor. That is the correct link.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, February 6 2005 18:14 Profile #6
quote:
Originally written by Notus:


If you want the current source code, I'll send it to you. It is developed on MS VC++ .NET 2003. Discussing on the problem of the current code will be useful to consider our new version. Or it's better to mount it on the CVS of SourceForge?
I'd be in favor of putting it on SourceForge so anyone can look at it.

Also, the code will compile using GCC (Dev-C++), right?

quote:
a) Essential bug was found on the file I/O system.
Please provide more information on this.

EDIT:
Perhaps we should put the screenshots on SourceForge. Any thoughts?

Notus, check your PMs.

[ Sunday, February 06, 2005 18:17: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, February 6 2005 18:14 Profile #6
quote:
Originally written by Notus:


If you want the current source code, I'll send it to you. It is developed on MS VC++ .NET 2003. Discussing on the problem of the current code will be useful to consider our new version. Or it's better to mount it on the CVS of SourceForge?
I'd be in favor of putting it on SourceForge so anyone can look at it.

Also, the code will compile using GCC (Dev-C++), right?

quote:
a) Essential bug was found on the file I/O system.
Please provide more information on this.

EDIT:
Perhaps we should put the screenshots on SourceForge. Any thoughts?

Notus, check your PMs.

[ Sunday, February 06, 2005 18:17: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, February 6 2005 16:02 Profile #4
The 3D editor is essentially an improved version of the regular editor. All it does is just give you the option of viewing the terrain in 3D. Although there is no need, you can use both for one scenario. It should make no difference.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Win 3D Editor coming soon (maybe) in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, February 6 2005 16:02 Profile #4
The 3D editor is essentially an improved version of the regular editor. All it does is just give you the option of viewing the terrain in 3D. Although there is no need, you can use both for one scenario. It should make no difference.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Saturday, February 5 2005 20:49 Profile #277
This is Modern Empiricism, no?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Friday, February 4 2005 14:02 Profile #73
The for_each function is meant as a way to iterate through a static class where an iterator cannot be made (unless Notus knows how to make this possible). For example, the switching of endianness in the original program was done by a universal port() function in all classes that essentially called flip_short() on all its short members. This takes up quite a bit of source code, and limits the extensiblity of the code. The for_each function would take a functor as an argument and apply it to all its elements. This way a universal functor flip_data can be made (like the one I posted above) and used to flip all classes with a for_each function. Also, anytime you want to do something to all of the class' members, you can just create a functor to do it on a primitive, and call object.for_each( specified_functor() ).

Inheritance is very important and is almost always used in templating, most excessively in template metaprogramming, due somewhat to virtual inheritance. Not sure how templating could mimic inheritance. Look into expression templating (an article can be found on the intro to Boost.Spirit's document) and then how Boost.Spirit uses inheritance to store these expressions (the rule<> class).

EDIT:

Also, templating is mainly used in the construction of libraries. To my knowledge its not usually used to any great extent in application development.

[ Saturday, February 05, 2005 20:55: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Friday, February 4 2005 14:02 Profile #73
The for_each function is meant as a way to iterate through a static class where an iterator cannot be made (unless Notus knows how to make this possible). For example, the switching of endianness in the original program was done by a universal port() function in all classes that essentially called flip_short() on all its short members. This takes up quite a bit of source code, and limits the extensiblity of the code. The for_each function would take a functor as an argument and apply it to all its elements. This way a universal functor flip_data can be made (like the one I posted above) and used to flip all classes with a for_each function. Also, anytime you want to do something to all of the class' members, you can just create a functor to do it on a primitive, and call object.for_each( specified_functor() ).

Inheritance is very important and is almost always used in templating, most excessively in template metaprogramming, due somewhat to virtual inheritance. Not sure how templating could mimic inheritance. Look into expression templating (an article can be found on the intro to Boost.Spirit's document) and then how Boost.Spirit uses inheritance to store these expressions (the rule<> class).

EDIT:

Also, templating is mainly used in the construction of libraries. To my knowledge its not usually used to any great extent in application development.

[ Saturday, February 05, 2005 20:55: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Friday, February 4 2005 07:32 Profile #71
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

Iteraters such as for_each function can be realized as a stack object when we need it.
Not exactly sure how an iterator can be created in a class such as boat_record_type to iterate through its members while keeping type data, and I have tried quite a bit. Can you explain specifically how?

quote:
I also consider on the muti-document editing, because it's Copy/Paste requirement. We should handle multiple documents at the same time to realize copy/paste between two scenarios.
Loading all the data into the memory doesn't limit extensibility, except on the memory size. In most of application framework, document class is used to handle multiple documents. In the BoA Editor, a document class will own all scenario data class derived from one scenario data file (.bas). When we expand the feature, the document class will also own extra script data class. It is common concept.
I think splitting data between memory and disk introduces another complexity, though the data should be handled as a whole.
As for disk I/O, surely it'll increase the loading time but it was within 1-2 sec for the largest zakhazi.bas. On the Windows version of 3D Editor, I’ve already rewritten to load whole scenario on memory temporarily.
And saving time will be faster than the original method. To save town/outdoor, first make a copy of whole scenario replacing the edited town/outdoor. Then delete the original and rename the new data. That is, whole scenario data is scanned on the disk to save a town/outdoor. This is a prfered method for data safety. If the whole scenario is loaded on memory, no need to scan it on the disk.
I'll have to go with you on this since you have by far more programming experience. Is there a reason why that method of saving is safer?

[ Friday, February 04, 2005 10:54: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Friday, February 4 2005 07:32 Profile #71
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

Iteraters such as for_each function can be realized as a stack object when we need it.
Not exactly sure how an iterator can be created in a class such as boat_record_type to iterate through its members while keeping type data, and I have tried quite a bit. Can you explain specifically how?

quote:
I also consider on the muti-document editing, because it's Copy/Paste requirement. We should handle multiple documents at the same time to realize copy/paste between two scenarios.
Loading all the data into the memory doesn't limit extensibility, except on the memory size. In most of application framework, document class is used to handle multiple documents. In the BoA Editor, a document class will own all scenario data class derived from one scenario data file (.bas). When we expand the feature, the document class will also own extra script data class. It is common concept.
I think splitting data between memory and disk introduces another complexity, though the data should be handled as a whole.
As for disk I/O, surely it'll increase the loading time but it was within 1-2 sec for the largest zakhazi.bas. On the Windows version of 3D Editor, I’ve already rewritten to load whole scenario on memory temporarily.
And saving time will be faster than the original method. To save town/outdoor, first make a copy of whole scenario replacing the edited town/outdoor. Then delete the original and rename the new data. That is, whole scenario data is scanned on the disk to save a town/outdoor. This is a prfered method for data safety. If the whole scenario is loaded on memory, no need to scan it on the disk.
I'll have to go with you on this since you have by far more programming experience. Is there a reason why that method of saving is safer?

[ Friday, February 04, 2005 10:54: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Friday, February 4 2005 07:21 Profile #265
quote:
Originally written by SkeleTony:

quote:
By not logically proving the existence of matter, you take it on FAITH, or assume, that it exists.
No, beyond the aforementioned "necessary assumptions" I do not assume anything. I Accept that matter exists. We have to make a distinction hee between "faithful assumptions"(i.e. "I know he is innocent because I know my brother!") and things which we accpet as true because to do otherwise would require a great deal of "faith"(i.e. "I exist." or "We are not just figments of some genie's imagination.").
If you accept a claim based on no evidence, which you say your axioms do not have, you take it on faith. You are specifically ignoring this fact, and by doing so rationalize for the survival of your fundamentally flawed philosophy.

Matterialism in its essence is the objective assumption that matter exists and can explain all phenomena. This assumption, while at times true, holds no meaning to those in the subjective realm, as we can only see things through our viewpoint. Now, it can be proved that matter exists through the senses. We feel it, we smell it, we see it, so it must exist. But to do so would mean to define and prove the senses, and that which uses them (CONSCIOUSNESS). This would fundamentally separate the concept of mind and matter thereby contradicting the base idea of materialism. For this reason all materialists do not prove the existence of matter. They consider it a "neccessary assumption" which is essentially just a rationalization created by those who cannot accept the fallacy of their belief system. This act of rationalizing completely invalidates the entire concept of materialism even though some of its ideas ring true.

As for the reference to Locke:

That quote was Locke's justification for the rejection of Immanuel Kant's idea of innate ideas. Although innate ideas can be true, they hold no ground as they have no proof. To be accepted as both true and EVIDENT, an idea must be examined by a CONSCIOUSNESS.

[ Friday, February 04, 2005 12:15: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Thursday, February 3 2005 18:27 Profile #69
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

quote:
3) I believe all objects having directly to do with BoA's non-visual data should derive directly from an unnamed class that has virtual functions such as for_each( _FunctorT __f ). Comments?
Umm, I cannot understand what you mean. Please elaborate more.
Just an ADT with virtual functions and no pure virtual functions (I don't like pure virtual functions. They tend to make the code messier.).
All classes having to do with the game, such as item_record_type, and boat_record_type would derive from this object. No objects having to do with the GUI, or objects such as standalone functors would derive from it. The for_each function is just an example of a function that would increase how generic the overall code is, and therefore make extraneous algorithms easier for others to write. I just wanted to make sure there were no arguments for the ADT.

quote:
I think that whole data (all towns and all outdoors) from a scenario should be expanded on the memory at the same time.
It will release us from allocation problem on disk I/O every time we handle the town/outdoor data. And also the reallocation becomes so easy, only we prepare index array to convert the order on the memory to that on the disk.
[/QB]
Its not neccessarily the size I'm worried about. Loading all of the .bas file into the memory limits extensibility. I was thinking we could give the program an Multiple Document Interface. By doing this the way I said, or something of the like, the user can work on more than one project at once. Also saving/loading would be done much faster, as only one chunk of the file needs to be loaded.

Hmmm, this sounded better in my head. Perhaps I'm not considering something?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Thursday, February 3 2005 18:27 Profile #69
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

quote:
3) I believe all objects having directly to do with BoA's non-visual data should derive directly from an unnamed class that has virtual functions such as for_each( _FunctorT __f ). Comments?
Umm, I cannot understand what you mean. Please elaborate more.
Just an ADT with virtual functions and no pure virtual functions (I don't like pure virtual functions. They tend to make the code messier.).
All classes having to do with the game, such as item_record_type, and boat_record_type would derive from this object. No objects having to do with the GUI, or objects such as standalone functors would derive from it. The for_each function is just an example of a function that would increase how generic the overall code is, and therefore make extraneous algorithms easier for others to write. I just wanted to make sure there were no arguments for the ADT.

quote:
I think that whole data (all towns and all outdoors) from a scenario should be expanded on the memory at the same time.
It will release us from allocation problem on disk I/O every time we handle the town/outdoor data. And also the reallocation becomes so easy, only we prepare index array to convert the order on the memory to that on the disk.
[/QB]
Its not neccessarily the size I'm worried about. Loading all of the .bas file into the memory limits extensibility. I was thinking we could give the program an Multiple Document Interface. By doing this the way I said, or something of the like, the user can work on more than one project at once. Also saving/loading would be done much faster, as only one chunk of the file needs to be loaded.

Hmmm, this sounded better in my head. Perhaps I'm not considering something?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Thursday, February 3 2005 15:52 Profile #257
quote:
Originally written by SkeleTony:

I take NOTHING on "faith". Never touch the stuff. You seem to be under the impression that we have some choice in the mnatter as far as these first principles are concerned? The reasoin these assum,ptions are "necessary" is because we are FORCED to accept them as a starting point because reasoning cannot be subject to infinite regress of justification by reasoning.

Without these axioms, we are just chattering imbecilles sitting around waiting for a death we have no reason to think will come(and then it DOES!).

"Faith" is the adherance to a belief/claim in lieu of(or in SPITE of) evidence.
"FAITH" is to trust a belief/claim in the absence of corrobarating evidence. By not logically proving the existence of matter, you take it on FAITH, or assume, that it exists. Although it is true that matter exists, by assuming it and not proving it, you invalidate all derivations thereof.

quote:
John Locke, "An Essay On Human Understanding", Book I, Chapter II
1. No moral principles so clear and so generally received as the forementioned speculative maxims. If those speculative Maxims, whereof we discoursed in the foregoing chapter, have not an actual universal assent from all mankind, as we there proved, it is much more visible concerning practical Principles, that they come short of an universal reception: and I think it will be hard to instance any one moral rule which can pretend to so general and ready an assent as, "What is, is"; or to be so manifest a truth as this, that "It is impossible for the same thing to be and not to be." Whereby it is evident that they are further removed from a title to be innate; and the doubt of their being native impressions on the mind is stronger against those moral principles than the other. Not that it brings their truth at all in question. They are equally true, though not equally evident. Those speculative maxims carry their own evidence with them: but moral principles require reasoning and discourse, and some exercise of the mind, to discover the certainty of their truth. They lie not open as natural characters engraven on the mind; which, if any such were, they must needs be visible by themselves, and by their own light be certain and known to everybody. But this is no derogation to their truth and certainty; no more than it is to the truth or certainty of the three angles of a triangle being equal to two right ones: because it is not so evident as "the whole is bigger than a part," nor so apt to be assented to at first hearing. It may suffice that these moral rules are capable of demonstration: and therefore it is our own faults if we come not to a certain knowledge of them. But the ignorance wherein many men are of them, and the slowness of assent wherewith others receive them, are manifest proofs that they are not innate, and such as offer themselves to their view without searching.
Thuryl:
You say your a dualist, so I guess I can ask you this. I don't quite get dualism, but as I understand it, it applies to any philosophy that contains an idea in its purity, and its antithesis. Is this at all correct?

[ Thursday, February 03, 2005 18:29: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Thursday, February 3 2005 11:40 Profile #67
quote:
Originally written by Notus:


Kernelknowledge,
Thank you for organizing our effort on making BoA editors and finding the best place to support our project. Without your proposal and quickness, we might still work inconsistently.
Thank you.

quote:

It takes a while for me to adapt myself to SourceForge system (Mac client for CVS is worst :( ).
Yes, well CVS clients are in general, well, horrible. Tortoise CVS is the only easy one I know of, and it took me a whole two weeks to become somewhat competant in it. (The Help files didn't help much.) As I'm not too competent in CVS (the actual program), I was wondering if its possible to remove a module from the cvs server. Anyone know how?

quote:

But Mac version has been almost finished, and Windows version will be released soon. Please wait a little more.
Sorry if I'm being impatient, I'll wait as long as is needed, but in the meantime, there are a few things I would like to get your/Isaac/other developers' opinions on:

1) Is the idea of separating the project into a GUI and a "kernel" a good one, or will it create problems I'm not thinking of?

2) Notus, you said something about changing the BoA structures' (such as boat_record_type) data members to ints. Is this correct?

3) I believe all objects having directly to do with BoA's non-visual data should derive directly from an unnamed class that has virtual functions such as for_each( _FunctorT __f ). Comments?

4) For loading towns/outdoor sects from a .bas file, should we create town/outdoor sect structures that keep track of what file they came from, so they can save/load to/from the file without reallocation?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Thursday, February 3 2005 11:40 Profile #67
quote:
Originally written by Notus:


Kernelknowledge,
Thank you for organizing our effort on making BoA editors and finding the best place to support our project. Without your proposal and quickness, we might still work inconsistently.
Thank you.

quote:

It takes a while for me to adapt myself to SourceForge system (Mac client for CVS is worst :( ).
Yes, well CVS clients are in general, well, horrible. Tortoise CVS is the only easy one I know of, and it took me a whole two weeks to become somewhat competant in it. (The Help files didn't help much.) As I'm not too competent in CVS (the actual program), I was wondering if its possible to remove a module from the cvs server. Anyone know how?

quote:

But Mac version has been almost finished, and Windows version will be released soon. Please wait a little more.
Sorry if I'm being impatient, I'll wait as long as is needed, but in the meantime, there are a few things I would like to get your/Isaac/other developers' opinions on:

1) Is the idea of separating the project into a GUI and a "kernel" a good one, or will it create problems I'm not thinking of?

2) Notus, you said something about changing the BoA structures' (such as boat_record_type) data members to ints. Is this correct?

3) I believe all objects having directly to do with BoA's non-visual data should derive directly from an unnamed class that has virtual functions such as for_each( _FunctorT __f ). Comments?

4) For loading towns/outdoor sects from a .bas file, should we create town/outdoor sect structures that keep track of what file they came from, so they can save/load to/from the file without reallocation?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
BoA Editor Remake in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, January 30 2005 13:14 Profile #14
I gave you developer access. Also Notus suggested you release the OS X version of the 3D Editor via SourceForge.

Also I PM'd my contact info to you.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
BoA Editor Remake in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Sunday, January 30 2005 13:14 Profile #14
I gave you developer access. Also Notus suggested you release the OS X version of the 3D Editor via SourceForge.

Also I PM'd my contact info to you.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
BoA Editor Remake in Blades of Avernum Editor
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Saturday, January 29 2005 17:08 Profile #12
You'll have to tell me the UNIX username (not the publicly shown one) you choose, then I'll give you developer access to the files. This lets you directly change the files, but does not give you administrative control. If you want administrative access, I'll give it to you, but you'll have to be more active than you plan to be.

Also to get/change/commit the code you'll have to get a cvs client (if you don't have one already). If you don't know how to use cvs, well, this'll be a problem, as cvs is very hard to learn, but its not impossible. Since I used windows, I could get Tortoise CVS which is much easier to use than regular CVS, though it doesn't take advantage of advanced features. Don't know what clients there are for OS X, but the information is all on SourceForge.net. Also you can look up "The CVS Book." (Its free and online.)
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
BoA Editor Remake in Blades of Avernum
KernelKnowledge12
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
 written Saturday, January 29 2005 17:08 Profile #12
You'll have to tell me the UNIX username (not the publicly shown one) you choose, then I'll give you developer access to the files. This lets you directly change the files, but does not give you administrative control. If you want administrative access, I'll give it to you, but you'll have to be more active than you plan to be.

Also to get/change/commit the code you'll have to get a cvs client (if you don't have one already). If you don't know how to use cvs, well, this'll be a problem, as cvs is very hard to learn, but its not impossible. Since I used windows, I could get Tortoise CVS which is much easier to use than regular CVS, though it doesn't take advantage of advanced features. Don't know what clients there are for OS X, but the information is all on SourceForge.net. Also you can look up "The CVS Book." (Its free and online.)
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00

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