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3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #50
quote:
Originally written by Dahak:


1) Tint the side bar icons just as they are tinted in 3D mode.

quote:

* Small pictures of the items and creatures next to their names in the menus. Finding these things would be much easier with images than with just text.

If a remake comes into the works the entire look/feel will most likely change. The other three suggesstions will definitely be possible.

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 19:25: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #50
quote:
Originally written by Dahak:


1) Tint the side bar icons just as they are tinted in 3D mode.

quote:

* Small pictures of the items and creatures next to their names in the menus. Finding these things would be much easier with images than with just text.

If a remake comes into the works the entire look/feel will most likely change. The other three suggesstions will definitely be possible.

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 19:25: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #47
For liscensing issues, the GPL should be more than adequate, although before we start any coding, or even start a project on sourceforge, we should ask Jeff for express permission. Before this though, we should probably find out exactly how many people are willing to help.

Actually we should decide on whether we should create a sourceforge project right now. I can create the project if neccessary, although I'm sure there are several people here that are also registered with SourceForge.

On a side note, I just found out about this library a week ago, and IMHO it's brilliant:
Phoenix

(It is not yet part of the Boost distribution, but it probably will be in the future.)

EDIT:
Oh and about the C++/C thing, if we can write the code to completely separate the procedural part from the OO part, we can avoid the problem of confused C people. Also we can set a requirement for a certain amount of commenting/documentation.

EDIT:
I looked over the BoA Editor liscense, and would a remake of the Editor constitute a "Contribution"? Also, why does the last part, entitled "YOU MAY NOT:" seem to contradict the other parts?

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 15:07: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #47
For liscensing issues, the GPL should be more than adequate, although before we start any coding, or even start a project on sourceforge, we should ask Jeff for express permission. Before this though, we should probably find out exactly how many people are willing to help.

Actually we should decide on whether we should create a sourceforge project right now. I can create the project if neccessary, although I'm sure there are several people here that are also registered with SourceForge.

On a side note, I just found out about this library a week ago, and IMHO it's brilliant:
Phoenix

(It is not yet part of the Boost distribution, but it probably will be in the future.)

EDIT:
Oh and about the C++/C thing, if we can write the code to completely separate the procedural part from the OO part, we can avoid the problem of confused C people. Also we can set a requirement for a certain amount of commenting/documentation.

EDIT:
I looked over the BoA Editor liscense, and would a remake of the Editor constitute a "Contribution"? Also, why does the last part, entitled "YOU MAY NOT:" seem to contradict the other parts?

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 15:07: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #45
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

I agree to remake it from scratch and use a cross-platform framework.

I don't know so much about cross-platform frameworks, but I suppose it'll provide so-called application framework, like MacApp, PowerPlant and MFC. It'll reduce our labor on the event dispatch, mouse/keyboard handling, menu, dialog and components on the main window such as tool/item palettes. Do you have any recommendation on a cross-platform framework?

See how you like wxWidgets. It's extremely powerful and over 12 years in the making.

quote:

As for the file I/O, "port", endian conversion on the datafork is incomplete in most case. It doesn't care about resources. A standalone utility for cross-platform data converter is desirable.
Resource fork of Mac .cmg file will be temporally converted to .rsrc (Resource Manager-style resources) with StuffIt expander when a .sit file is expanded on Windows. This means we can make a data converter from Mac to Win using .sit file even on Windows.

Not too sure why this would be needed. Please elaborate.

quote:

In most of data classes, especially data saved in .bas file (scenario_data_type, outdoor_record_type, town_record_type, big_tr_type, ave_tr_type, tiny_tr_type) unsigned char is used. This reduces performance on the execution speed. Nowadays, PC has plenty of RAM. Saving a several hundred KByte memory is nonsense. These data types should be the natural size (int) for CPU. Even if we changes the data size, we only need dedicated serializing method for file I/O. Then we can freely add members to these classes. For example, adding two member variable, type and size, big_tr_type, ave_tr_type and tiny_tr_type are represented by one class. This will encapslate so many conditional branch on the source code.

First I think we see if we can get inheritance on our side, but, yes, there are several ways the classes in the original source code can be bettered.

quote:

On graphic routines, the problem is more serious. Even the basic data types are different on PC and Mac. Not only the size of data but the order of members.
Windows GDI defined in global.h Mac QuickDraw
typedef struct { typedef struct { struct Point {
LONG x; char x; short v;
LONG y; char y; short h;
} POINT, *PPOINT; } location; };

typedef struct _RECT { typedef struct { struct Rect {
LONG left; short top; short top;
LONG top; short left; short left;
LONG right; short bottom; short bottom;
LONG bottom; short right; short right;
} RECT, *PRECT; } macRECT; };
a) Use only common data types defined explicitly on the source code in most of routine, except a several wrapper routines for porting.
b) Do not use simple utility routines provided by the operating system, such as InflateRect(), PtInRect(). Make a compatible one on the source code.

We should ignore most of the graphic routines ( except Isaac's code ) as the use of a framework will drastically change the way the underlying calls will work. The graphics code should wait for a while.

On another note, since this is an editor, maybe we should split the entire application into two smaller projects: the "kernel", and gui. The "kernel" will deal with just basic totally cross-platform operations (such as porting, loading files, and editing the files). The gui will be mostly cross-platform, but will have to use different graphic loading code due to the different resource files inherent in BoA.

Also the scripting engine used in the editor needs to be replaced. Fortunately, Boost.Spirit will make this incredibly easy. (We should be able to expand this to all types of scripts also.)

All of these are suggestions; comments are welcome.

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 07:00: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #45
quote:
Originally written by Notus:

I agree to remake it from scratch and use a cross-platform framework.

I don't know so much about cross-platform frameworks, but I suppose it'll provide so-called application framework, like MacApp, PowerPlant and MFC. It'll reduce our labor on the event dispatch, mouse/keyboard handling, menu, dialog and components on the main window such as tool/item palettes. Do you have any recommendation on a cross-platform framework?

See how you like wxWidgets. It's extremely powerful and over 12 years in the making.

quote:

As for the file I/O, "port", endian conversion on the datafork is incomplete in most case. It doesn't care about resources. A standalone utility for cross-platform data converter is desirable.
Resource fork of Mac .cmg file will be temporally converted to .rsrc (Resource Manager-style resources) with StuffIt expander when a .sit file is expanded on Windows. This means we can make a data converter from Mac to Win using .sit file even on Windows.

Not too sure why this would be needed. Please elaborate.

quote:

In most of data classes, especially data saved in .bas file (scenario_data_type, outdoor_record_type, town_record_type, big_tr_type, ave_tr_type, tiny_tr_type) unsigned char is used. This reduces performance on the execution speed. Nowadays, PC has plenty of RAM. Saving a several hundred KByte memory is nonsense. These data types should be the natural size (int) for CPU. Even if we changes the data size, we only need dedicated serializing method for file I/O. Then we can freely add members to these classes. For example, adding two member variable, type and size, big_tr_type, ave_tr_type and tiny_tr_type are represented by one class. This will encapslate so many conditional branch on the source code.

First I think we see if we can get inheritance on our side, but, yes, there are several ways the classes in the original source code can be bettered.

quote:

On graphic routines, the problem is more serious. Even the basic data types are different on PC and Mac. Not only the size of data but the order of members.
Windows GDI defined in global.h Mac QuickDraw
typedef struct { typedef struct { struct Point {
LONG x; char x; short v;
LONG y; char y; short h;
} POINT, *PPOINT; } location; };

typedef struct _RECT { typedef struct { struct Rect {
LONG left; short top; short top;
LONG top; short left; short left;
LONG right; short bottom; short bottom;
LONG bottom; short right; short right;
} RECT, *PRECT; } macRECT; };
a) Use only common data types defined explicitly on the source code in most of routine, except a several wrapper routines for porting.
b) Do not use simple utility routines provided by the operating system, such as InflateRect(), PtInRect(). Make a compatible one on the source code.

We should ignore most of the graphic routines ( except Isaac's code ) as the use of a framework will drastically change the way the underlying calls will work. The graphics code should wait for a while.

On another note, since this is an editor, maybe we should split the entire application into two smaller projects: the "kernel", and gui. The "kernel" will deal with just basic totally cross-platform operations (such as porting, loading files, and editing the files). The gui will be mostly cross-platform, but will have to use different graphic loading code due to the different resource files inherent in BoA.

Also the scripting engine used in the editor needs to be replaced. Fortunately, Boost.Spirit will make this incredibly easy. (We should be able to expand this to all types of scripts also.)

All of these are suggestions; comments are welcome.

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 07:00: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #106
quote:
For others - Does the root of evil necessarily have to be evil itself? I would argue that sapience/sentience is not.

We should probably first agree on a definition, although I'm not sure why we're continuing with this "absolutism" arguement, as there does not have to be a specification concerning how many moral codes there are or who defines them in the definition of moral good/evil. Unless there are any other arguments, we should move on.

Soldoric: I believe something of the like has already been said (i think by me ) earlier. ;)

[ Monday, January 24, 2005 06:59: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #96
Are we still talking about good/evil?

Nevermind.

[ Sunday, January 23, 2005 18:52: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #93
How long are we supposed to wait?
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #43
The code I created was lost in a computer foul up, and I wasn't too concerned for how clean the code was when I created it. (The code was still much cleaner than the original.) Also the code was not in the least bit cross-platform (it used MFC and DirectX). I do, however, remember what I did and since I stopped working on it I've had several ideas.

Either way, it should first be decided whether the code should be reorganized, or restarted. I vote for the latter as reoganizing it would just amount to more than double the work. Remaking it would also make it easier to update, as it would be a our code.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #43
The code I created was lost in a computer foul up, and I wasn't too concerned for how clean the code was when I created it. (The code was still much cleaner than the original.) Also the code was not in the least bit cross-platform (it used MFC and DirectX). I do, however, remember what I did and since I stopped working on it I've had several ideas.

Either way, it should first be decided whether the code should be reorganized, or restarted. I vote for the latter as reoganizing it would just amount to more than double the work. Remaking it would also make it easier to update, as it would be a our code.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #91
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:


Surely a universally acceptable definition of "good" and "evil", if only we could agree on one, would amount to just that?

If you're looking for an explicit definition, I'm not sure this is possible. Otherwise, I believe Locke's definition of moral good/evil (excluding his explicit reference to reward/punishment) is acceptable, but this will not amount to a universally accepted moral code.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #86
Please, someone start a new topic!
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #84
I didn't think there was a moral code that applied to everyone.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #82
A little more on Locke's thoughts of moral good/evil, from the same part as the last posted excerpt. (it includes the last excerpt, but a little more that might help with the definition.)

quote:

4. Ideas of moral relations. Fourthly, There is another sort of relation, which is the conformity or disagreement men's voluntary actions have to a rule to which they are referred, and by which they are judged of; which, I think, may be called moral relation, as being that which denominates our moral actions, and deserves well to be examined; there being no part of knowledge wherein we should be more careful to get determined ideas, and avoid, as much as may be, obscurity and confusion. Human actions, when with their various ends, objects, manners, and circumstances, they are framed into distinct complex ideas, are, as has been shown so many mixed modes, a great part whereof have names annexed to them. Thus, supposing gratitude to be a readiness to acknowledge and return kindness received; polygamy to be the having more wives than one at once: when we frame these notions thus in our minds, we have there so many determined ideas of mixed modes. But this is not all that concerns our actions: it is not enough to have determined ideas of them, and to know what names belong to such and such combinations of ideas. We have a further and greater concernment, and that is, to know whether such actions, so made up, are morally good or bad.

5. Moral good and evil. Good and evil, as hath been shown, (Bk. II. chap. xx. SS 2, and chap. xxi. SS 43,) are nothing but pleasure or pain, or that which occasions or procures pleasure or pain to us. Moral good and evil, then, is only the conformity or disagreement of our voluntary actions to some law, whereby good or evil is drawn on us, from the will and power of the law-maker; which good and evil, pleasure or pain, attending our observance or breach of the law by the decree of the lawmaker, is that we call reward and punishment.

6. Moral rules. Of these moral rules or laws, to which men generally refer, and by which they judge of the rectitude or pravity of their actions, there seem to me to be three sorts, with their three different enforcements, or rewards and punishments. For, since it would be utterly in vain to suppose a rule set to the free actions of men, without annexing to it some enforcement of good and evil to determine his will, we must, wherever we suppose a law, suppose also some reward or punishment annexed to that law. It would be in vain for one intelligent being to set a rule to the actions of another, if he had it not in his power to reward the compliance with, and punish deviation from his rule, by some good and evil, that is not the natural product and consequence of the action itself For that, being a natural convenience or inconvenience, would operate of itself, without a law. This, if I mistake not, is the true nature of all law, properly so called.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #40
Well, I'd like to help, although I'm currently working on quite a few other things, so I'm not sure how much actual time I may be able to commit.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #40
Well, I'd like to help, although I'm currently working on quite a few other things, so I'm not sure how much actual time I may be able to commit.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by KernelKnowledge12:
I assume it is currently accepted that Hobbes' definition of good/evil is correct.
I don't know where you would get an idea like this, but no, it's not, really. There have been a few hundred years of thought since him that have been spent supporting, refuting, and ignoring him. If there's one broad generalization one can make about the state of philosophy and moral thought, it's that there is no consensus, like, at all.

I meant that for this thread, and when I wrote that I just meant to say that I was using his definiton as a base for what I was about to write. And Thuryl's right, we're still trying to hammer out a definiton. Sorry for the confusion.

quote:
Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:

I refuse to acknowledge anything Hobbes says as correct, for instance. I refuse to have any truck whatsoever with his damnedable social contract, and I'm sure as hell not going to drop to my knees and start beating off because the poor are not directly subject to the hungering of wolves.
Hobbes DID NOT come up with the social contract as we think of it today, Locke did in his "Second Treatise on Civil Government." Hobbes' version (outlined in Leviathan) grants the sovereign all the power to do whatever it wants.

quote:
Originally writtwn by Thuryl:
For me, the problem with Hobbes's definitions is that while they may be adequate for what ethicists like to call natural good and evil, they fail to capture the concept which many people have of moral good and evil. (I don't happen to draw a distinction between the two, but I'm very much in the minority there, and language is a democracy.)
We should have made this distinction a while ago. I don't believe Hobbes ever made a clear cut distinction, but here are Lockes ideas on the subject:

quote:
John Locke, "An Essay Concerning Human Understanding", Book II, Chapter 28:

5. Moral good and evil. Good and evil, as hath been shown, (Bk. II. chap. xx. SS 2, and chap. xxi. SS 43,) are nothing but pleasure or pain, or that which occasions or procures pleasure or pain to us. Moral good and evil, then, is only the conformity or disagreement of our voluntary actions to some law, whereby good or evil is drawn on us, from the will and power of the law-maker; which good and evil, pleasure or pain, attending our observance or breach of the law by the decree of the lawmaker, is that we call reward and punishment.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Need Advice in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #2
Look up something called the Image Processing Library (IPL). It's a pretty advanced library that follows STL conventions, and I'm pretty sure its cross-platform. I'm not sure it supports many file types, but making your own image processing code can be very tedious.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #71
I assume it is currently accepted that Hobbes' definition of good/evil is correct. If not let it be so for at least the duration of this post.

Good thoughts are thoughts that directly "please" the person who has them. The altruistic thoughts of a person with who is pleased at the thought of helping someone would fall into this category. The opposite goes for evil thoughts.

Good actions are actions that directly "please" the person who has them. The specific action an altruistic person takes to help another would fall into this category. The opposite goes for evil actions.

These definitions are not meant to be independent of each other as they are just types of the broader "good/evil". A person can have evil thoughts and yet still act in a way that contradicts his/her thoughts, hence "hypocrisy."

This is all just a proposal. Tweak it if you deem neccessary.

Hope this makes things clearer.

EDIT:
Think this supports my case:
quote:
Thomas Hobbes, "The Elements of Law", Chapter 7

"8. There are few things in this world, but either have a mixture of good and evil, or there is a chain of them so necessarily linked together, that the one cannot be taken without the other, as for example: the pleasures of sin, and the bitterness of punishment, are inseparable; as are also labour and honour, for the most part. Now when in the whole chain, the greater part is good, the whole is called good; and when the evil over-weigheth, the whole is called evil."



[ Friday, January 21, 2005 20:12: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum Editor
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #37
Might I suggest moving this project to SourceForge.net. This would help get the entire community involved in development, and there are quite a few programmer's here with the capacity to contribute.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
3D Blades of Avernum Editor 1.0 for Mac OS X released! in Blades of Avernum
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #37
Might I suggest moving this project to SourceForge.net. This would help get the entire community involved in development, and there are quite a few programmer's here with the capacity to contribute.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #68
Perhaps it is neccessary to further divide the mentioned definition of good/evil into two subcategories (following the same template of Hobbes' please/displease definitions): good/evil thoughts and good/evil actions. This would explain the above situation, and compensate for the free will of humans. Not exactly sure if someone else thought of this. If so I doubt it was Hobbes; maybe Locke or Paine.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #64
I'm not sure I understand. Can you provide a specific example?

EDIT:
If you mean pure altruism, well Hobbes (and others) thought this was impossible ( see the first excerpt I posted ) as this would mean the being is completely and utterly good. According to Hobbes, an altruistic ethical code is based on some good being transferred to the practicioner. In other words (according to Hobbes) people who do good things expect that it will bring them good sometime in the future.

[ Friday, January 21, 2005 14:09: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00
Root of all evil in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 4557
Profile #61
quote:
Originally written by SkeleTony:

"God" cannot exist for the same reason that round squares cannot exist. SOmething cannot be both 'A' and 'Not A' at once.

Obviously if something is true, its complement cannot be true, but this proves absolutely nothing of the existence of any god or anything else for that matter. All this says is that God must either exist or not exist. Please clarify the reason for why you believe god does not exist, and on a further note, why you follow such a religious form of atheism.

quote:
Originally written by A Cool Half Million:

The root of all evil lies within the human spirit; it is the tendency to extremes- extremes of emotion and obsession with material goods and pleasures, among other things.

This makes perfect sense, although targeting the human spirit seems a little too specific for me.

EDIT:
Does this tendency to extremes come from a certain philosphy?

[ Friday, January 21, 2005 12:54: Message edited by: KernelKnowledge12 ]
Posts: 264 | Registered: Wednesday, June 16 2004 07:00

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