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The Universe in General
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #55
The word 'dimension' is sometimes used in popular speech to mean something like 'alternate universe', but the term 'dimension' is never used for that concept in physics. Physics theories about having more than three dimensions in space really do mean that there are extra directions to go in, not that there are alternative 'planes of existence' or whatever.

But there are respectable physics theories about multiple or alternate universes. This can be in two senses.

The first is the sense of the so-called 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics, in which one supposes that the incompatible alternatives which may be 'superposed' in quantum mechanics all actually exist, in separate versions of reality. Rival interpretations, such as the so-called 'Copenhagen' school of thought, say instead that there is only one reality, but that quantum mechanics doesn't always predict which alternative will actually happen.

The second is the sense Mind mentions, of one reality that includes multiple separate universes.
There are theories that allow this, that have nothing to do with quantum mechanics. Imagine a bunch of beachballs drifting separately through the air, with ants living on their 2D surfaces. Now if your imagination could replace each of these 2D surfaces with a 3D world, you would have a picture of multiple universes.

In both quantum and non-quantum versions of multiple worlds, it is possible for single worlds to divide and for separate worlds to recombine. In the quantum version, it would be a big, all-or-nothing melding of everything in the universe at once (though you might never notice it because the initial difference between the merging worlds might be very tiny and localized). In the non-quantum version, a wormhole would appear somewhere in each universe, connecting to the other one.

I believe that the quantum cosmology theories that Hawking has formulated incorporate both kinds of multiplicity of universes -- though for the quantum multiplicity it is still just a matter of personal taste whether one believes or not that the quantum alternatives all actually exist.

Of course, the whole thing is just a very speculative theory, and in that sense it's up to you whether or not to believe any of it. Hawking's quantum cosmology has not been accepted, or even considered plausible, by many of his colleagues.
I'm just pointing out that even in itself his cosmological theory does not imply any particular commitment for or against the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. That's a separate issue, bigger than cosmology, but even further from physics and closer to metaphysics.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Loyal Shapers to the West in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #1
Keep pushing West a few maps. They're surprisingly close to Barzahl's stronghold of Rising.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Loyal Shapers to the West in Geneforge 2
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #1
Keep pushing West a few maps. They're surprisingly close to Barzahl's stronghold of Rising.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Poll with a poll: survivors in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #0
Who do you expect to see in G3?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 29 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=VuCfMAtFCjth"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=VuCfMAtFCjth"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window IMAGE(votenow.gif)     IMAGE(voteresults.gif)

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Can anybody predict what is the creature behind the big door? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #5
I think it ought to be a Dragon. I mean, like a Drayk or Drakon, only really huge and with city-burning fire. I'm hoping it has something to do with the fires that were mentioned in some G3 teaser text.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
The Universe in General
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #52
Usually the only reason anyone asks why the night sky is dark is that they know the answer; most people don't even realize it's at all hard to understand why the night sky is dark.

The sky is dark at night because the universe is not eternal, but began a finite time ago. The portion of the universe from which light has had time to reach us is thus finite. If this were not so, then in every direction in the night sky there would surely be a star shining on us, however far away, and so there would be no dark spaces visible between stars. But in any finite volume of space, the stars just have to be scattered thinly enough for the sky to look mainly black. And in fact they sure are scattered thinly.

The ongoing expansion of the universe enhances this basic effect by stretching light waves from distant stars so that their wavelength grows beyond the visible range.

One trouble with the 'rubber sheet' image for gravity is that in Einstein's theory it is spacetime that bends and stretches, not just 3D space. In fact, in most cases the bending of space is negligible, and it is the varying rate at which time flows in different places that produces the effect we usually think of as gravity.

If anyone still cares I can also try to answer questions about the Hawking effect. I'm supposed to know this stuff.

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 18:51: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Why does no-one notice you're a prodigy? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #6
My own best bet is that the rapid gain in levels is actually some kind of side effect of the canisters, which only occurs when an actual born-and-bred Shaper uses a few of them. Only a very few such Shapers have used any canisters even in G2, and they are all (a) already secure enough when they started on canisters that they might never have had to fight much and thus discover the experience effect, and (b) stark raving mad.

Trouble is that you can beat the game and rise to enormous power without ever letting a drop of that bright green goo touch your skin ...

Clawbugs might not help Barzahl so much, but if that's a problem he's got lots of Glahks.
Whuppin' a few Glahks every morning before breakfast would give him back the sixpack abs he had in Shaper school.

As to running the city, why would he even bother, if like me he could take the whole world singlehanded? Tell the boys to hold the fort a few days while he picks up a dozen levels, killing things that need killing anyway because they threaten Barzite borders. Then make like a PC and go stuff the Geneforge down Easss's throat.

Here's the best rationale I can see for downplaying the PC's uniqueness.

All the G2 factions are really extremely weak, and know it. They could certainly defeat the PC if they concentrated all their assets for one pitched battle, but even if they did that they would be no match at all for a Shaper army. So they have to work all out at growing strong enough to resist the Shaper Council. They all have hopes for doing so, but these plans all take time, and require them to disperse their strength to work on several different projects in parallel. In the meantime they have a window of vulnerability in which a single Shaper, catching them strategically if not tactically by surprise, could rub them out piecemeal.

On this argument, Barzahl might be able to defeat the Takers the same way the PC does, but taking time out to do this would slow his work to put together a force that can defeat the Shaper Council, and he can't afford to risk even a few days' delay in that desperate race against time.

I think there are some problems with this rationale, though. All the factions send you right off to warn the Shaper Council as soon as you have neutralized their last local rival, so it doesn't seem as though they were largely ignoring each other to focus on the much harder task of resisting the Council. And none of them behaves towards you as though they imagine that their survival is at your whim.

You might be able to argue that it wouldn't actually take a historic titan to destroy the G2 factions in their windows of vulnerability. But it seems to me that the factions all think themselves to be pretty safe from a young Shaper apprentice, even if he has picked up a few things in his short visit to the Drypeak range. So it seems like there must still be something pretty unusual in the PC's rapid rise.

Perhaps it isn't so crazy that the main NPCs don't remark on this. Barzahl and the Takers might be too megalomaniacal to let themselves believe anyone could be a rival, and the big problem with the Awakened is that their only sane leaders are pretty much out of the loop as far as understanding real power is concerned.

But I still think there ought to be some narratorial indication that the PC has come a long way surprisingly fast, reaching higher levels of personal proficiency in a few days than senior Shapers like Zakary, Sharon, Barzahl and Shanti have managed in their whole careers.

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 18:06: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
How Long Must We Endure This Interminable Wait?!? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #3
We must have patience.

The arts of the Shapers may only be acquired
by many years of painstaking effort and study.

Acquired responsibly, that is. We wouldn't want
to get what we want too quickly, reach dizzying
heights of power in mere days, and devastate the
landscape all around us by recklessly absorbing
magical viruses by the dozen until we glow and
shoot fireballs from every pore.

Of course not.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Why does no-one notice you're a prodigy? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #2
I guess I wasn't clear enough about my point. In particular, my topic title didn't reflect my actual topic. So I have now changed it.

I'm not objecting at all to the fact that the PC is incredibly extraordinary.

I'm objecting to the fact that no-one in the game seems to notice that the PC is incredibly extraordinary.

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 15:12: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Why does no-one notice you're a prodigy? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #0
Here is something I'd really like to see addressed in G3, especially as it seems to begin with you as a student in a Shaper school.

How come in these games your character can come in as a powerless apprentice, and within days accumulate enough power to wipe out everyone and everything, where the supposedly brilliant likes of Barzahl and Trajkov, supported by many talented followers, have been unable to get further than they have in months of effort? Why doesn't Barzahl, for instance, realize that cleaning out a few clawbug colonies would do him as much good as a canister? Or would it?

In other words, the ability to gain levels so quickly from experience earned must be something unique to the PC. Fine, this is a magical world. But why doesn't anyone ever comment on a fact that ought to surprise everyone involved? The PC must be the Shaper-world equivalent of Mozart, Newton, and Alexander the Great all rolled into one.

In G1 it might not be so hard to explain that nobody finds this remarkable. The serviles expect shapers to be godlike, the sholai don't know what to expect, and perhaps Goettsch imagines you to be even more heavily augmented with canisters than you are. And perhaps you yourself are too inexperienced a shaper to know that advanced shaper skills usually come with decades of training rather than days of killing rogue fyoras. Or perhaps it could be chalked up as a side effect of the canisters. Sholai who have apparently gobbled down dozens of them are as wheat to your sickle, but perhaps the canisters have additional subtle effects on an actual shaper.

In G2, though, it's quite weird that none of the experienced powergatherers in the game remarks upon how very much faster you can gather power than they can.

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 15:11: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
[anticipating] How will I get past the weird Artilas? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #6
Yeah, I don't hold it against them that there is a certain amount of repetition of basic motifs. Between the internal logic of the game world, and the constraints of game mechanics, certain situations are bound to be common. Good design involves using as many actually different situations as possible, and finding ways to make the analogous situations feel different. I feel that Jeff has done well on both counts with G1 and G2. As long as the similarity isn't bad, it's actually good, at least in my book -- variations on a theme are nice.

So, for instance, the Infested Woods in G2 are much more tangled geometrically than Pentil Plains in G1, and they have a weird vat, a lurking servile, a spawner, and a valuable herb. Infested Woods is a creepy, spooky place, while Pentil Plains is noonday violence with a tragic background (the ruined farms).

Oh, and I don't find it so hard to believe that Trajkov and Barzahl would rather have you tackle Goetsch and the Takers, respectively. It's far from obvious who would win an all-out Trajkov/Goettsch or Barzite/Taker confrontation. By the time you can do the final mission for either B or T, you can also toast them. So I think it's fair to say that both tasks really are beyond the capability of B or T without you.

Even if they do have some shot at doing their big jobs themselves, Trajkov and Barzahl are both leaders of large groups, with huge long-term ambitions, so neither is going to be keen on staking everything on one very chancy venture. Whereas if this stranger from nowhere can do it for them, great; and conversely if the stranger fails, that at least gets rid of the stranger who might be a rival, and is bound to weaken the opposition to some extent.

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 13:18: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
[anticipating] How will I get past the weird Artilas? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #4
Examples of repeated tactical challenges:

Low level party vs. mixed Thahds and Artilas, in challenging numbers. A fairly safe staging area, from which you are warned of what lies ahead, is provided.
G1, Pentil Plains; G2, Infested Woods

(Pyro)roamers spread out over a map, but swarming you if you let them.
G1, those marshes; G2, those other marshes

Shades plus radiation.
G1, Power Core; G2, that crystal mine

Enough clawbugs that you can get swarmed.
G1 and G2 both, several places.

Vlish that will gang up and hunt you down.
G1, Pentil Woods, Junkyard; G2, Medab Road, others

Augmented superdrakon goes medieval on you.
Okay, this one was new to G2.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
[anticipating] How will I get past the weird Artilas? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #2
I don't really want help with my anticipated Artilas, of course. My point is that there are some predictable kinds of challenges in the GF games, especially early on. It might be amusing, especially for those who are most rabidly champing at the bit for the new installment, to list some of the obvious ones, so that we can later reflect on how Jeff creatively expanded the palette of GF challenges, or failed to do so, in G3.

Laying out a forum policy for 'Help!' topics is an excellent idea, of course. Does this forum support stickies?

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
[anticipating] How will I get past the weird Artilas? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #0
How will I get past the weird Artilas outside the gate?

Well, actually, G3 is not out yet. But I'm sure there will be weird Artilas outside a gate, somewhere in it. There have to be. And they will be hard to get past. They always are.

How many other 'help' topics can we antipate in advance?

[ Wednesday, March 23, 2005 08:33: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Poll without a poll: survivors in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #0
Polling is disabled in this forum, so I can only raise the question.

Which survivors from G2 do people expect to see in G3?

I bet Learned Pinner won't make it: she's too old.
Same for Learned Darian, I think -- though perhaps if Darian is clever enough to make the Emerald Chestguard, extreme longevity is also possible.

I bet Tuldaric is presumed not to have been killed by the player in G2, and to have been brilliant enough to escape and hole up somewhere as a mad rebel genius summoning demons full time.

I doubt Barzahl makes it, but perhaps the Barzite canister-maker (I forget his name) stole away somewhere with the knowledge of how to make canisters.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sharon turns up, her life having been reluctantly spared by the Shapers because they needed her expertise, but forced to work in a secret complex for the rest of her days, far from the peace of her beloved gamma-infested garden.

There has to be a Taker or two who survived, to tend or explain their mysterious final creature. Maybe Syros, as a mad old coot of a drayk, hiding in some hole. Or maybe one of the younger serviles.

And how about an intelligent Rotghroth from one of the labs? They never talked in G2, so that might be an interesting change.

It would be cool if the Augmented Drayk somehow survived as a fanatical Anti-Taker leader ... but really it was too passive to do anything but hide.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Geneforge 3 Forum!! in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #8
Jolly good show. I say.

(When you're only tenth or so it's easier to keep the facade in place.)

[ Tuesday, March 22, 2005 15:39: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Geneforge 3 Futhorc Runes in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #20
No need to apologize, Icshi. I'd have been more than happy to join in if I had more time for reading now, and I'm still at least a bit happy to see other people's opinions about these series of big fat books.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
research notes in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #5
If you search you may find an ancient thread in this forum explaining how to sell the notes to Gareth even if you're not a Barzite; but I could never get the method to work. It involves some extreme fussiness over exactly where your character stands when you see Gareth, and if you don't get it exactly right you just make the whole town go hostile.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
research notes in Geneforge 2
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #5
If you search you may find an ancient thread in this forum explaining how to sell the notes to Gareth even if you're not a Barzite; but I could never get the method to work. It involves some extreme fussiness over exactly where your character stands when you see Gareth, and if you don't get it exactly right you just make the whole town go hostile.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Geneforge 3 Futhorc Runes in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #17
Amid the fascinating but vaguely discouraging discussion which my arcane rune topic has generated, concerning fantasy series that are way too long for me to start reading these days, one response from Toenail about runes cheers me up again.

When I first read Tolkien I got into runes because they were all over the edition I had, and while I never did memorize any alphabets, I was still able to recognize that the squiggles in the corners of the GF3 screen looked like actual runes and not arbitrary squiggles. Then I noticed that some of them repeated, as is likely in real words, so I Googled 'runic alphabets' and just scrolled down until I found the one that had all the same symbols.

BTW I'm now leaning to the theory that the 'geneforeg' spelling is not a misspelling at all, because I think it's quite likely that the 'g' rune is always soft but the 'o' rune is only long if followed by 'e'.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Top 5 Favorite Weapons in The Avernum Trilogy
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #8
I am sorry to confess that I voted for the Fungoid Spine without any knowledge whatsoever, just because I wanted to see the poll results. Thus the small clique of Fungoid Spine fanciers is actually even smaller than it appears.

Sorry again.

What the heck is a Fungoid Spine?

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
which is better? Geneforge 1 or Geneforge 2? in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #11
I don't know how to answer the question because I really like them both, in different ways, and the differences seem quite appropriate. GF1 is a tightly plotted story, confined to a mysterious island. GF2 is about the rampant proliferation and escalation that is inevitable after the bell that can't be unrung has been rung. As such, to me it is simply right that it has more spells and creations, and more factions, but a more sprawling and multidirectional 'plot'.

I find Guardians a bit more fun to play in GF2 than in GF1, actually, because high Parry can make them unhittable, and I seem to be able to do quite enough damage with second swings from Quick Action, without Anatomy. I am still a bit unhappy that they don't seem different enough in playing strategy from Agents.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
which is better? Geneforge 1 or Geneforge 2? in Geneforge
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #11
I don't know how to answer the question because I really like them both, in different ways, and the differences seem quite appropriate. GF1 is a tightly plotted story, confined to a mysterious island. GF2 is about the rampant proliferation and escalation that is inevitable after the bell that can't be unrung has been rung. As such, to me it is simply right that it has more spells and creations, and more factions, but a more sprawling and multidirectional 'plot'.

I find Guardians a bit more fun to play in GF2 than in GF1, actually, because high Parry can make them unhittable, and I seem to be able to do quite enough damage with second swings from Quick Action, without Anatomy. I am still a bit unhappy that they don't seem different enough in playing strategy from Agents.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
RPGs in General
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #46
It's pretty easy to turn up accurate histories of RPGs on Google.

Wargaming with miniatures was invented by the German army in the 19th century, and was used (as it still is in armies all over the world) to train officers. This original Kriegspiel introduced the 'gamemaster'. Rather than devising extensive statistical tables, an experienced commander would just decide what the results of player decisions would be.

By the 1950s or so, tabletop wargaming with painted lead figures was an obscure hobby, but I once found a hardcover book from that era discussing rules and strategies. It was very much like Warhammer, although the themes tended to be historical. The crucial thing is that there were no mass-produced scenarios. Every game was concocted fresh by the players, and with the minimal rules a lot of the simulation had to be invented out on the fly. It was out of this that D&D first emerged, the joint work of Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson. The rest you can dig up with Google (which will confirm pretty much everything the older posters have said in this topic).

The one essential thing to realize about pen-and-paper RPGs is that, thanks to those grim old Prussian generals, instead of a program you have an online human gamemaster. As a result, you can do (or at least try to do!) absolutely anything with your character. You are not constrained to choose from a list, however long, of implemented actions. You can attack a monster by pulling a tapestry off the wall, setting it alight, and throwing it over the brute's head. You can decide you're bored with the Elvish Kingdom and go on a thousand mile march to the Dark Republic. You can try to woo the Vampire Queen instead of slaying her.

It takes a good gamemaster to handle such creative actions in ways that don't break mimesis. A reluctant referee flipping through a rulebook is not going to manage something that makes you realize you've got anything World of Warcraft ain't got. But a good GM can give you a simulation experience that no computer program in the foreseeable future will be able to provide.

Plus, as with the old lead figure wargames, the overall theme and style of the game can be tailored to exactly what you and your friends most enjoy. You totally miss this possibility if your GM is just awkwardly administering a storebought scenario, but if you've got an inspired worldcrafter of a referee, it can be like having J.R.R. Tolkien working just for you. And if your fellow players are creative too, the interactions between your characters can be much more substantial than just trading items and talking trash.

If you want beautiful pictures and sound, CRPGs are of course the only way. If you're on a Spiderweb forum, you're obviously happy to accept sketchier graphics in return for a great story. Pen-and-paper RPGs are just further in this same direction.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Geneforge 3 Futhorc Runes in Geneforge Series
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #0
In the GF3 screenshots, the corners of the screen have a mysterious bunch of runes. I have deciphered them: they are Anglo-Saxon 'futhorc' runes, and they spell 'geneforeg' [sic]. The dyslexic ending appears to be there to permit the 'around the corner' palindrome effect. Perhaps this is not just poetic license, though, but rather reflects (a) some feature of runic phonology I don't know or (b) that 'geneforge' is supposed to be pronounced more like 'geneforage'.

Well, there it is.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00

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