3D Graphics in Blades...
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Wednesday, November 3 2004 18:23
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I know it sounds weird, but what if we could change the original terrain in BoE to be three dimensional? Is it even possible? Perhaps by modifying the Avernum graphics we could to something. I once saw a 3D monster graphic (Brett Bixler)so why can't we have 3D terrain? [ Wednesday, November 03, 2004 18:42: Message edited by: Mad Mezzulah ] -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, November 3 2004 18:54
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The answer is "sort of". You can have either the X and the Y dimension or the X and the Z dimension, but not all three at once (or not very well). Some sequences (like the Nephil dream in Redemption or the Vault of Chutes and Ladders in Adventurers' Club 2) play a little like platformers. Mostly, though, we've made do with standard 2D graphics for things like that. [ Wednesday, November 03, 2004 18:54: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, November 3 2004 21:14
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Didn't, uh, Demon Island II have a 3D dungeon or something? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2626
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written Thursday, November 4 2004 03:54
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Since both are really two dimensional, the conception of "three dimensional" is in the mind of the player. As such, I, personally, find the Avernum games to be more of a distraction. Maybe I'm weak minded, or maybe I just prefer more logical layouts. Regardless, I much prefer the X - Y graphics and have no desire to play the Avernum games, nor would I play scenarios laid out that way for the BoE system, simply because I don't like them, even if they were available. That's probably why the two systems exist, separately, because there are different likes and dislikes. Please don't misunderstand my statement here. I'm not "knocking" the idea if it gained support. I just don't think it would be practical to put X - Z layouts in the BoE series any more than putting the X - Y games in the BoA series. Posts: 257 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Thursday, November 4 2004 04:09
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The 3D dungeon in Demon Island II in some way has X, Y, and Z dimensions. You're climbing ladders (Z) between platforms (X and Y) with special art to further the illusion that it is actually three-dimensional. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 15
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written Thursday, November 4 2004 04:54
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You could do this, but it would have to be a direct overhead view, not the Avernum overhead& side view. The best thing I can think of to describe this is a square within a square, with diagonal lines connection the corners of the outer square to the corners of the inner square. The inner square is the floor, the outer square is the (transparent) ceiling, and the stuff in between are the walls. I really don't think it would look that great, but I've seen other games that do this. -------------------- All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream. Visit the Louvre, the BoA Graphics Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boa/louvre/ Visit Alexandria, the BoE Scenario Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boe/alexandriajs/ Posts: 653 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Friday, November 5 2004 09:53
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What if wall terrain looked something like this? Colored in of course. And smaller. Like mentioned earlier, Avernum graphics are not really 3D. Would it also be possible to take original Avernum graphics and overwrite them to the terrain files in BoE? I am currently working on a set of 3D wall terrain. Just as an expirement. If the graphics turned out well, it would not be illegal to distribute them, would it? (My computer will not bring the picture up. Can you all see it?) [ Friday, November 05, 2004 10:25: Message edited by: Mad Mezzulah ] -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, November 5 2004 11:00
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I can see the picture. And of course if you make good custom graphics for BoE, you can make them available however you see fit. Since the BoA graphics are freely available anyway, I don't think it would be a problem if they were based on those, either. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Friday, November 5 2004 12:10
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Ok, now I need the help of all you expert scenario makers out there. I need to make a change terrain node when the party steps into a room. In Avernum, the wall shrinks, or moves out of the way so you can see the part of the room obstructed by the wall in the first place. I would like to do the same, but I don't know how. I also need the wall to pop back up when the party leaves the room. How do you do this? PS I am really thinking about throwing these new 3D graphics in a scenario I am working on. If anybody would like to help (I would really appreciate it)I can send what I have so far. I am just making a template so I can make everything else. One more question... how do you efficiently place doors on these 3D walls? -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5159
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written Saturday, November 6 2004 19:19
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i don't know if you realize this, however in order make the wall graphics efficient, you would also have to make the floor "3D" and the characters, and you could just play avernum. a 3D tileset within a 2D environment will just not work correctly. you could make it look alright, but never as proffesional as the crappy graphics of the game originally were. vice versa it could work, but only in cartoon movies. besides that, in avernum you have a slanted square. in exile you have a perfect square, which means that you have to work inside of it. all the graphics would have to take up more then 1 square to actually look 3D. it is an interesting concept, but i doubt, a probable one. [ Saturday, November 06, 2004 19:22: Message edited by: Captain Obvious ] -------------------- "The whoopie cushion shall rise again." - Anton Szandor LaVey Founder of the Church of Satan Posts: 78 | Registered: Wednesday, November 3 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, November 6 2004 19:27
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I will be blunt- not even remotely worth it. You'd burn up so many nodes so quickly that you couldn't get anything done. One thing I can see happening is this- towns can have two "portions," an outdoors and indoors setting, wherein the outdoor section has the walls put up and roof terrains making 3d buildings, with the indoors section using regular old 2d displays. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, November 6 2004 20:01
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I think it could be done without too many nodes, but it'd burn a lot of terrain types, which are even more precious. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Sunday, November 7 2004 16:04
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quote:Okay, set a node at the door to check whether SDF (x,x) is set to 1 or not. If not, call a change terrain node that turns the wall section into floor, and then set the flag to 1. If the flag is set to 1, call a change terrain node to change it back to wall again, since the party is leaving, and then set the flag back to 0. EDIT: Er, you might want to add a looking block, too. [ Sunday, November 07, 2004 16:05: Message edited by: 4614 and 4808 ] -------------------- -ben4808 Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Sunday, November 7 2004 17:57
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That is a good idea TM, instead of nodes, just change the town whenever you walk through the door. This is what is what I have so far: I used the file TER3 and just drew over it. If I keep it up, do you think it is even worth it to keep on going? Thuryl aptly said that terrain spaces are precious. I don't know if I would be able to this without taking half of them up. If anyone has any suggestions, or wants to contribute, please do. -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Sunday, November 7 2004 18:07
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If you want my honest opinion, I say just play BoA. But if not, you're going to have to come up with _tons_of_custom_graphics. -------------------- -ben4808 Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Monday, November 8 2004 01:27
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Make them custom graphics and just overwrite all of the existing walls. It shouldn't be too much of a terrain space turnover. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, November 8 2004 01:37
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Yeah, but the only reasonable way to make the walls appear and disappear when walking in and out of houses is through Transform Rectangle nodes. That means you'll need a significant number of new floor terrains; one for every wall terrain. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5187
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written Saturday, November 13 2004 18:31
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you should make these graphics for a different game. 3d is cool, but BoE isn't set up for them. while your at it though... i would like to see animated creatures and charactors. your walls look cool though. "... if i only had a brain." the scare crow in the wizard of ozz -------------------- ~~SaltyDog~~ Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, November 13 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Sunday, November 14 2004 06:01
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Just play BoA already. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Sunday, November 14 2004 14:25
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Well, I my order for BoA is on its way to Seattle. I am wondering, is it even worth it to move on? People are saying the BoE engine isn't built for the 3D thing. Well, Avernum did it on a 2D surface so I am seeking a way to do it with BoE. Once I get BoA, I might try to convert some of the graphics, that is if anyone cares, or wants them. EDIT: Can someone please help, if you care. This project may be a walking time bomb, but if anyone has any interest, just email me. Also, how do you make roofs on this? [ Sunday, November 14, 2004 14:52: Message edited by: YooDoo Man ] -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Sunday, November 14 2004 15:30
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quote:You can't without a lot of transform nodes. You'd be out of nodes before you were done. What I want to know is--why bother? You can't do it satisfactorily and still have a working game come out of it. And BTW, BoA graphics do NOT port well to BoE. I've tried. EDIT: And for how Avernum did 3D in 2D: Isometric. The 45-degree viewpoint allows depth. Straight-on viewpoint does not, to any satisfactory degree. Basic geometry and a little common sense go a long way... [ Sunday, November 14, 2004 15:31: Message edited by: Arenax ] Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Sunday, November 14 2004 16:57
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Well, TM said that a solution to the node burning problem is to make a node changing the town. One would be with walls up, and the other with walls down. And the point? Well, I personally love BoE. The only downside is, the graphics. For being 2D, they are not bad, but don't you think it would be cool to have a sort-of-avernum graphics and throw Quickfire on an innocent town? I do. EDIT: By shrinking avernum graphics, it could be done. And by twisting the graphics, you can create the 45- degree thing - correct? [ Sunday, November 14, 2004 17:08: Message edited by: YooDoo Man ] -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, November 14 2004 18:07
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Dude, just make a BoA scenario that incorporates BoE-type spells. It would be so much easier.... Well, if you can pull it off, more power to you. The problem you might run into is that the party will always be 2D, unless you modify core files, in which case Spiderweb will declare your scenario illegal and will not host it (which may or may not matter — Corporeus faced this). -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4942
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written Monday, November 15 2004 13:53
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Whoa. You can make BoE spells in BoE? Cool... I think I'll just drop this. It is just really pointless now... -------------------- Wham Bam Shizam Posts: 247 | Registered: Monday, September 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5181
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written Monday, November 15 2004 14:38
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quote:Oh, yes! Let's use a horribly inefficient system to do something pathetically easy in a far superior system. In the words of the Guinness hamster-mouse-thing, "BRILLIANT!" quote:Actually, to do that, you'd have to have the entire town in one map. Which, if you were to use TM's suggestion, you couldn't do. BRILLIANT! quote:No, you would have horribly distorted blobs or, in the case of floor terrains, square, 2D terrains. Get BoA--it does what you want to do. The downside is that you actually have to invest some time in scenario-making, but hey, if I finish my node system that won't even be necessary. Posts: 262 | Registered: Thursday, November 11 2004 08:00 |