Geneforge 5 - May Update

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AuthorTopic: Geneforge 5 - May Update
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #25
The Vlish uprising will be glorious.

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #26
War Tralls are so wimpy, that any coolness they might have is badly undermined for me. Wingbolts eat War Tralls; Gazers inhale them. And even if Tralls were beefed up a lot, chucking rocks just seems lame to me. It's good that the top battle creations finally have a ranged attack, but the rocks don't even look big, or anything, in-game. If War Tralls could throw rocks but also swing giant axes in melee, for scarily huge damage, that might be cool.

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Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #27
And in pure statistics, War Tralls are horrendous. That problem really lies in the fact that the entire Battle Shaping line has been CATEGORICALLY worse than Fire and Magic Shaping from G3 onward. This is not good. The War Trall is a good place to start, but the others need attention too.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #28
There's one thing tralls have that no other creations have, pouches to put their stones into!

I'm a believer of Battle Creations and frankly, as the other members stated, they are too underpowered. They have nothing unique against the other schools of shaping. Fyoras can bite as hard as thahds do, drakons do much more damage ranged and the same in melee as tralls do. Sure they have high HP, but that doesn't mean they be that good of an ally. Maybe if they have some kind of taunt skill, so it'll be sure that they'll take some heat off you, the munchkin PC.

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But after revenge is taken, nothing remains but a painful scar...
You ain't evil until you hear this!
Looking for group to slaughter the world..
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 15001
Profile #29
What I'd like out of my War Trall is for it to block incoming missile and magic attacks -- like it would know it can take a ton of damage and would automatically shield the other creations with its body. This could make a War Trall / Wingbolt combination very effective.

Just for coolness factor, it would be cooler if instead of hurling rocks, the Trall bowled them along the ground. Maybe the attack could have a greater chance to stun to stimulate the enemy being knocked off their feet.

Also, since it is very strong and already has a bag with apparently limitless volume, I'd like it to carry some of my gear.

[ Friday, May 09, 2008 08:45: Message edited by: madrigan ]
Posts: 67 | Registered: Thursday, March 6 2008 08:00
Board Administrator
Member # 1
Profile Homepage #30
I will tell you this about the factions. The game-winning factions are all designed with a focus on reaching an end to the war/story. They are defined by their goals, not their tactics.

And yes, there may well be a game-losing faction.

At this point, I am not planning to add any new player-made creations. I like the current mix. I will be focusing on rebalancing them to make them more useful. In particular, the melee creations will be getting some love. I'll probably start with giving them a bunch more health, to give them more of a "tanking" capacity.

I don't have plans to ever add pack animals. It's a lot of extra code for not much of a gain. And anyway, your mule would die the first time you encountered a monster with an AE attack.

- Jeff Vogel

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Official Board Admin
spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com
Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #31
Jeff -- more health is fine, but the Battle Creations really need better attacks. Right now, their melee attacks are CONSISTENTLY weaker than breath attacks from corresponding Magic & Fire Creations, even though breath attacks have a host of advantages over melee attacks! What's even worse, their melee attacks are usually weaker than Magic & Fire melee attacks, and are never significantly stronger.

For example: a Glaahk and a Drayk will BOTH do more MELEE damage than a Battle Alpha! And yes, this does take into account the Battle Alpha Strength bonus. Given that the Glaahk slows and the Drayk also has a missile attack, Alphas are useless. Similarly, Vlish outdamage Clawbugs IN MELEE (and both poison). The Vlish also have a missile attack; Clawbugs are useless. On average, Gazers outdamage Rotghroths IN MELEE... do I need to go on?

And War Tralls... hah! Battle Alphas outdamage War Tralls in melee!

You probably don't want to see the math, but it's all available here if you do:
Board post here

[ Friday, May 09, 2008 10:20: Message edited by: Slarty ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 15228
Profile #32
Rothgroth is the only battle creation that I'v ever used or found hard to kill when they're my enemies. their acidy-ness made them almost invulnerable to my oozing blade. Even they pale when you can get drakons and gazers. My late game gazer in G3 killed the things in one hit half the time. war tralls chucking rocks is an interesting idea, but it would be better if it chucked some huge boulders instead of ones the size of tennis balls. If they chucked big boulders that smashed stuff they'd actually be cool!

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To speak the truth one must first see it through both eyes.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #33
I find Alphas to be more...evasive than other Tier 3 creations.

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But after revenge is taken, nothing remains but a painful scar...
You ain't evil until you hear this!
Looking for group to slaughter the world..
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 15187
Profile Homepage #34
Yes, I found the Rotghroth very useful in G3... never tried it in G4.

As for War Tralls: Isn't that the creature with that distressingly huge... tumor? I found that a little disturbing.

I agree with Slarty that the melee creations need some strengthening. I tend to prefer the magic and fire creations, whenever I use creations.

I tried that Kyschaak (sp?) for a while... I didn't keep it long. It didn't prove extraordinarily helpful. But as I've said before: The Wingbolts were brilliant. I picked one up as soon as I could and they're excellent creatures... when you're not on the wrong side of them.

And.. Jeff: More quick-key slots! More spells!
Posts: 178 | Registered: Saturday, March 8 2008 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #35
quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

In particular, the melee creations will be getting some love. I'll probably start with giving them a bunch more health, to give them more of a "tanking" capacity.
- Jeff Vogel

Health isn't their problem except for pyroroamers. Their attacks aren't comparable to the other shaping types. Besides kyshakks have more than enough health if you want tanks.

[ Friday, May 09, 2008 22:54: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #36
We also need to think of battle creations as adversaries as well as allies.

Battle creations function best as a swarm. One thahd or battle alpha is not dangerous, but be attacked by four at once as a low-level character, that's a problem. The classic clawbug patrol has them either travelling in packs, or calling for help the minute they are attacked.

As a PC this presents a problem, owing to the high essence cost of creations: unless you devote all your essence to battle creations and accept a lower level of creation, you won't be able to build up a swarm of an acceptable size. However reducing the essence cost of battle creations would perhaps create problems with game balance.

What I would most like to see would be "2 for the price of 1" on battle creations. But you'd have to link them so there wouldn't be the option to use the essence on anything else. Would be really cool if they shared health (like those twinned adversaries). This could replace the third tier charged variants...

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Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3746
Profile #37
I'll just have to write about my amazing Kyshaak mount/pack animals instead of seeing them ingame... Ah well.

Rock on, Your Jeffness. ;)
Posts: 153 | Registered: Tuesday, December 2 2003 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #38
Two-for-one on Battle Alphas is a very interesting idea, but I think it would be too difficult to implement. If you don't go past the limit of 7 creations, it's the same as just dropping the essence cost for Alphas. If you do, then a swarm of 14 Battle Alphas would be cool, but really tedious to control directly in every battle. And if you left them with AI turned on, the results would probably be disastrous, unless Jeff put a huge amount of effort into AI for effective swarms.

I think Battle creations really only need a lot of beefing up. They should be very tough, very fast, and do huge melee damage.

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Listen carefully because some of your options may have changed.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 17926
Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Two-for-one on Battle Alphas is a very interesting idea, but I think it would be too difficult to implement. If you don't go past the limit of 7 creations, it's the same as just dropping the essence cost for Alphas. If you do, then a swarm of 14 Battle Alphas would be cool, but really tedious to control directly in every battle. And if you left them with AI turned on, the results would probably be disastrous, unless Jeff put a huge amount of effort into AI for effective swarms.

I think Battle creations really only need a lot of beefing up. They should be very tough, very fast, and do huge melee damage.

Perhaps an innate AP bonus to Melee creations might work.

That'd make people fear melee stuff more. Or make melee cost less AP. Actually, that might just throw everything in the favour of all melee.

I think the AP bonus might really work. After all, those things are strong and big, or like a War Thrall please make a BIGGER ROCK with a LOAD OF DAMAGE and hopefully some special damage like it having bonus damage which is proportional to the target's health.

Just some ideas......
Posts: 2 | Registered: Saturday, May 10 2008 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #40
Giving battle creations quick action chance for extra attacks will make them more damaging.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #41
I would suggest the following:

* Lower essence costs for battle creations, up HP and defense from all damage types relative to non-battle creations.
* Make intelligence actually mean something to non-battle creations higher than Fryoas. A 2 intelligence Wingbolt might only get off two shots before being exhausted. This forces players to invest more here for non-battle creations.
* Quick action and stun for battle alphas, and poison effects for clawbugs, and perhaps a paralysis like effect for war tralls.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #42
Battle Creations: Plain old offensive damage is really what needs to be upgraded. Defense and HP are good, but not enough; just look at the degree to which the Wingbolt is preferred over the Kyshakk. Now picture a Kyshakk with no breath weapon, but even higher HP. Nobody would use it!

The lack of ranged attacks are a HUGE inherent disadvantage the Battle Creation line has. Ranged attacks provide flexibility, as you will never be unable to get at the enemy you want to hit, and you can always get two attacks in when hasted; plus you get access to different elements to attack with. The fact that they also -- all of them! -- do more damage is kind of ridiculous. (And, I suspect, it is an artifact of the fact that creation battle skills were not updated when all melee damage changed from 1-8 per level to 1-4 per level between G2 and G3.)

Being more survivable is a very poor substitute for a ranged attack. Quick Action is better, but it's inconsistent, which only compounds the disadvantages caused by reliance on a melee attack. Battle creations need to be better at battle -- not worse.

[ Sunday, May 11, 2008 14:28: Message edited by: Slarty ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
"Slartucker is going to have a cow when he hears about this," Synergy said.
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #43
quote:
*i said "Fryoas"
Are these hot or cold?

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 15187
Profile Homepage #44
I do like the Quick Action idea. And that of adding more significance to creation intelligence.

Synergy:
Is that a trick question?

Hot or cold, indeed.

[ Sunday, May 11, 2008 23:52: Message edited by: Evnissyen ]
Posts: 178 | Registered: Saturday, March 8 2008 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7180
Profile Homepage #45
Upgraded battle creations, like battle betas, should be able to use a battle discipline each or every 2nd turn. A war trall with divine rage would be pretty dangerous, and would hopefully be able to rival the top tier creations power wise.

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Lag is a myth. You just suck.
Posts: 9 | Registered: Tuesday, May 30 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 52
Profile Homepage #46
I always like fire creations, they just seem more exciting somehow. My problem is that I can never bring myself to reabsorb older creations even though it would be more efficient to start a new higher level one.

I just can't euthanase my healthy little fyoras :(

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Behind, the sea of time and space roars and follows swiftly
Posts: 280 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #47
quote:
I'm sorry it's taken so long, but Rock Band, Smash Brothers Brawl, and GTA4 don't play themselves.

You should pick up Okami and Mario Kart Wii.

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Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 18004
Profile #48
Hopefully we will still be able to crate the drakons and drays and the ever original fyora ^^ I just finished genneforge 4 and it kept me wanting for more.

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Posts: 2 | Registered: Monday, May 12 2008 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #49
The battle creation issue is much tougher to fix than you might think.

They are good... Swarming helps and they require a dedicated keeper to buff and heal them.

But fire and magic creations are better. So much so that the inherent strengths of the battle creations are out shined by their fire and magic counterparts. Fire and magic creations don't need a baby sitter. Battle creations are just fine... The fire and magic creations need to be balanced. Toned down. Nerfed.

As to something else that was said, battle alphas and battle betas are a better investment point for point than war tralls. Sure, they lose the missile attack, but cost less in essence. You summon a whole mob of them and then buff them, making them quite fierce. You can do more damage with 4 or 5 members of the Alphabet Gang than you can with a pair of war tralls.

I have played many games using nothing but battle creations. They need some help, but mostly, the other classes of creations need the nerf stick.

Edit.

I don't think creations should be able to survive a prolonged conflict with out a babysitter. Fire creations and magic creations (I'm looking at you beholder-kin) tend to out shine the shaper that created them. I feel this is wrong, making such powerful creations that they do not need the shaper. I hope this makes sense.

[ Tuesday, May 13, 2008 05:19: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ]

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Tasty Vlish. They're tragically delicious.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00

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