GF5 Creation Wishlist

Pages

AuthorTopic: GF5 Creation Wishlist
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #0
I always enjoy these discussions, so I figure I'll start one.

Things I would like to see in GF5 in regards to creations:

No more creation management window/section. I like being able to see my creations at a glance, but I'd rather be able to create a zerg rush fyora army. Skip the 7 unit management window, and just have my creations be something I can click on individually or via a list window. That would allow the shaper to create more units. (possibly based on intelligence vs tier level of the creation, since it does often mention that stretching yourself can be very draining mentally)

Two: A *massively* widened creation list. If it's out there, I should be able to learn how to make it, even if I have to vivisect it to do so. I'm tired of being a middling little apprentice shaper/life crafter. To that end, there should be so many possible choices that no one character could ever learn all of them. More on this later.

Three: Battle Creations. They really should be cooler.

Four: More creation types. The three schools has been good to us so far, but it needs to be expanded. More entry level schools should be added, as should advanced schools ala Nethergate's magic system.

Five: More unique creation abilities, but they need to stay unique. Like one or two creations should have Spines, one or two should regenerate, one or two should have life-steal, etc.

Six: Turrets and mines should be it's own catagory/school. I *WANT* to be able to set up turret ambushes as an Agent/Infiltrator and lure mobs back to them. Likewise mines.

Seven: Both rats and worms should also be available as low-cost zergling style shaper units. Rats should be stealthy, worms should just be cheap.

Eight: More creations, yet again: All (or at least almost all) variants of a creation should be available, not just one.

Basically, my idea is to rework the whole shaping system to throw it wide open and create a lot more options. As it is there are really only two strategys: disposable whatevers, and artillery army. The game really needs a large multitude of creation options to open up strategy options. With more creations you could have some truly big but slow Battlers, some high end creations that are good as glass cannons but nothing else (unlike now when high-end creations are pretty much better at everything since there's so few choices and so few slots to create creations), critters that are good at ambush or stealth attacks, etc

Oh, and I'll go ahead and list a specific creation I'd like to see, too:

Discipline Vlish: Like the discipline wand, the Discipline Vlish can only damage creations. They are used to keep large armies of thahds and battle alpha's in line while waiting for the attack order.

I would also, if Blades of Geneforge ends up happening, like to stake claim to writing a scenario that revolves around Vlish secretly becoming more intelligent over the years and telepathically plotting to escape Shaper control ala the Drakon.

--------------------
I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #1
Allowing huge armies of weak creations doesn't seem worthwhile to me. The last thing I want is to have to micromanage a horde of worms; and if I leave them on AI, then this just makes combat long and boring to watch, with no active participation from me. In Warcraft and Starcraft, there are decisions to make about developing units, and so on. Geneforge is an RPG, not an RTS.

But beefing up battle creations definitely needs doing. The AP system change in G4 made battle creations viable, but they are simply too weak. They need to do a lot more damage, and probably also have more health. They could also use more coolness. Rotghroths have their acid and high speed, which is nice, but War Tralls throwing rocks is just lame. It's fine that they can do it, but it shouldn't be their main attack.

Maybe a simple system allowing some creations to carry items would do the trick. Then you could equip your Battle Alpha with excellent armor and a big sword, and it would become a serious ally.

And I don't know that we need hugely many more creations, but one or two new ones would always be fun if they were good. I like the idea of having more than the three 'schools' of creation, and of making some schools more advanced than others, as in Nethergate magic.

I think that the Artila, Clawbug, Glaahk, and maybe something else could be put into an entry-level 'arthropoid' line. Thahds, Alphas, Rotghroths and Tralls could be humanoids, which would also be an entry-level line. Fyoras, Drayks, Kyshakks and Drakons could be a fire lizard line. Roamers could fit in too if they were made to look a bit more lizardlike, and if their acid were described as a napalm-like 'searing heat' effect.

Vlish, Wingbolts and Gazers could be made into a Magic line that was higher level, requiring some minimal level in all three other schools in order to begin.

Then I kind of like the idea that instead of making enhanced creation variants just by getting higher levels in individual types, you might also have to learn some general techniques. For instance there could be a 'cryo shaping' that you could learn, and you might need a given level in it plus a given level in Drayk to make a Cryodrayk. Then in principle you could make even Cryodrakons -- why not? In addition to 'cryo' there could be 'shade', 'unstable', 'plated', etc.

It might also be nice if the PC were sometimes required to use special equipment or lab facilities, found in the game, to make certain kinds of creation. Maybe in this way you could enlist a golem, for instance.

Details could be different, but I'd like to see Shaping itself become more of a sophisticated art, more systematic and with a more complex decision tree. With battle disciplines probably imported from A5, melee combat should be richer in G5. And magic is already very powerful in these games. Shaping is the main distinctive feature of the Geneforge series, so I think that expanding and deepening Shaping itself would be a good step for the finale.

--------------------
We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #2
A mule creation..that's my one of my wish for G5..
I also like the Discipline Vlish..completely useless to none-cration..ouchies for creations..

Actually..if things you want to see in G5 was really implemented..you'll want more..and from last I heard..G5 is the finale..

My point is, if you got what you want..you'll want more..but you won't get anymore..period..

--------------------
Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are..
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #3
quote:
Originally written by DevilinDupriest:


I would also, if Blades of Geneforge ends up happening, like to stake claim to writing a scenario that revolves around Vlish secretly becoming more intelligent over the years and telepathically plotting to escape Shaper control ala the Drakon.

We are already using the Drakons to engineer our plot to eleminate the shapers. Now. Be quiet. And our plans quiet. Or else I will alter your mind and make you believe you are a chicken decended from a T Rex.

--------------------
If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #4
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

[We are already using the Drakons to engineer our plot to eleminate the shapers. Now. Be quiet. And our plans quiet. Or else I will alter your mind and make you believe you are a chicken decended from a T Rex.
Oops, I've said too much.

Uhh...I mean, I plan to write a scenario titled, "Night of the Living Tool" that revolves around a facility where living tools have gone rogue and are crawling through the air ducts attacking people.

Actually, that *is* one I want to write. heh.

Oh, and I definitely agree with Student of Trinity (mostly, I don't neccesarily want to find myself often using mass rush tactics, but I'd like the option. Plus you'd need more open slots to make turrets/mines viable) about making shaping a deeper system. I like most of your ideas, although I do want to add a 'Plant' school, to represent turrets, spinecores, and mines. I *very* much want to be able to shape turrets and mines finally. The use of overlay template bonus abilities, such as 'cryo' is also an interesting one, and would allow for quite a few variations. I'm somewhat afraid that he current variant system would need to be removed if such a system were implemented though. Although, I suppose if one of the options were, say, 'Plated' then the bonuses you get for adding 'Plated' to a creation could vary depending on the type of creation, so you could still get both the Plated Artilla, and the Plated Clawbug. And in fact, could add a damage resistant 'Plated Thahd'.

Perhaps also a 'minor shaping' school that includes rats, worms and other such useless things. Why? Why not, I *like* trying to win a game with the most useless allies/powers imaginable. =)

Although with more thought, worms could likely be in their own invertebrate school with artilla.

--------------------
I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

throwing rocks is just lame
Quoted for paradox.

I think it's worth being realistic. The shaping system is not going to get drastically redone for G5. Fyoras will still be the first creation available. This is just the way Jeff does things.

Creation balance can certainly change though. There's been noise here about weak battle creations for several games now.

I had previously been hoping for non-combat, non-PC slot creations, like a bag of holding creation. Some of the engine changes in G4 make these less necessary though.

And in case anyone is still confused, there will never be a Blades of Geneforge.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #6
....Well, that kinda sucked the fun out this thread on a point by point basis. Allow me to rebute:

1) Realism is for threads that don't involve the word 'Wish'. If I wanted to deal in 'realism' I'd go back to the Fallout 3 forums and listen to corporate apologists explain why Bethesda simply doesn't have any choice and 'must' make Fallout 3 a real-time first person game. I mean, honestly, I've lobbied for a personal shaping lab in every single wishlist thread for GF that I've ever posted in. (starting after GF 2, I think, although I could be wrong. I'm absolutely certain that I mentioned it after Avernum 3 and the house you could buy.) Nothing fancy, just find an abandoned lab and clear it out, then use it as a home base. Fun-ness. A great side-plot. What's more, I'm hardly alone in that wish, I know a lot of other people said the same thing. Likewise, there are several other things that are well within the scope of the current engine that have simply never happened. So...realism? Not really interested. It doesn't really seem to affect things one way or the other when it comes to wishlist threads. Which is to say, I've yet to see anything mentioned in a wishlist thread ever happen.

2) Several games? Seems more like since the beginning. See last part of #1.

3) Never is a very, very, very, very, very, very, very long time. Extremely unlikely I will grant you. Never? Not so much.

4) Rocks are lame. Magic is mostly a bunch of artillery, with the exception of their tier 3. Fire is the 'middle-ground' of both ranged and melee, though somehow it ends up being cooler at both of them. Battle is supposed to be the meleers. Making the fifth tier Battle Creation a gimped range creation was distinctly meh.

And for goodness sakes, am I reading the creation damage chart right? Why does it look like the gazer does the highest melee damage of all creations?

--------------------
I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #7
Because it does. While all the battle creations have standard melee attacks, the gazer and eyebeast have special melee attacks with higher dice and ancillary effects. They do 1-6, or 1-8, and cause fear -- something like that. I forget the specifics. You won't use them much as their missile attacks are still better, but they're there.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #8
They bat you with their eyelashes.

--------------------
We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #9
Here's an idea that, while quite a bit tamer, would also probably be far more feasible. How about the ability to shape specific abilities into a creation that can be improved like a regular skill? For example, you could shape spines into a Thahd, or you could shape an ability into a Fyora that allows them to spit at multiple targets at once. A Battle Alpha could be trained an a ability that stuns the target every time they're hit, and the War Trall could throw acidic rocks. And so forth.

--------------------
Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them!
AmnesiaDileciaThe Empire's New GroveExpress Delivery
Twilight ValleyWitch HuntWhere the Rivers MeetFoul Hordes
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #10
If that is so..a War Trall's hand must be so tough that it can hold acidic rocks..maybe a rock with chewy, gooey acid at the center which explodes and scatter the chewy, gooey acid inside if it hits something..that be safer..and maybe..just to nerf it..it sometimes don't spread the chewy, gooey acid inside..

I still zing for the mule creation..

Oh yeah..for the Battle Creation..All Battle Creations have the chance to maim a target..severely lowering their speed and weakening their attack..

WOOT FOR GAZERS HAVING THE STRONGEST MELEE ATTACK!

[ Sunday, May 20, 2007 01:29: Message edited by: Haakai-Tender Valcrist ]

--------------------
Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are..
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #11
You know what? War trall attacks should be painfully obvious.

They should throw big black anvils!

And it should even have a comical cartoony anvil sound.

--------------------
If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #12
The original idea wouldn't be too horribly hard to use. Just a few more scripted abilities and creations. The real problem would be the interface and overpowering.

--------------------
May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7638
Profile #13
Well the problems is that Jeff is an indie and there isn't enough time to make 9 new creation graphics.

I would like a new class of vilsh just because there are like 4 kinds of vilsh in the game. (Normal, terror, submission, and healing)

I would also like to be able to make charged creations in combat. I mean everyone else can shape, why can't you?

--------------------
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
-- Bill Gates, 1981

The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Posts: 152 | Registered: Monday, November 6 2006 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #14
Xian Trall?

The Vahnatai Creationists are gaining ground... I'd better double up my mooving prayers.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #15
quote:
Originally written by Yama:

Xian Trall?

The Vahnatai Creationists are gaining ground... I'd better double up my mooving prayers.

Argh, I just caught that joke from before. Can't believe I had to have it spelled out for me.

<--is going to name his next Trall 'Without Sin'.

--------------------
I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #16
If you slammed a gazer with an anvil and smooshed it, would it make a whoopie cushion noise?

--------------------
If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #17
Well, Dikiyoba knows a vlish would, so why not a gazer? :P
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #18
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

If you slammed a gazer with an anvil and smooshed it, would it make a whoopie cushion noise?
depends is that a regular anvil or an enchanted anvil?

--------------------
A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3568
Profile #19
I 100% agree with most of what the root poster proposes. However, I think it would be cleaner to add a bunch of new creations to the existing classes (turrets are battle, worms are magic, rats are fire) than to add new creation categories.

To flesh out my request in another thread: if the enemy can make steelskinned vlish, you should be able to do so, as well.

An individual creation can have up to two "egos" (the term used for items in games like Angband), a prefix-type-ego and an postfix-type-ego.

Each ego has to be learned individually. Each ego has skill reuirements independent of the creations to which it is applied. In addition, each ego raises the required level in *that specific creation* by 1. Thus, only canister addicts (or those who benefit from highly advanced shaper training, if such is available) will be able to make full use of egos.

Here's a putative list - not becuase I'd expect anyone to use it, but because I think spsecifics makes it clear what I mean:
* Steel-skinned (prefix). Requires battle skill of 3. Creation gains +25% physical resistance. Creation costs +25% essence. Requires +1 rank in relevant creation (i.e.: to make a steel-skinned fyora requires a fyora of 2 - to make a steel-skinned plated bug requires a clawbug of 4.)
* of the Spheres (postfix). Requires magic skill of 7. Creation gains +50% magic resistance, +25% cold resistance, +25% acid resistance. Creations attacks deal bonus magic damage (approximately 20% of base damage total.) Creation costs +50% essence. Requires +2 ranks in relevant creation.

***

On a distinct but related topic, very high shaping skills should do something for you. I understand why, from a game-balance standpoint, a fire shaping of 14 doesn't add +14 to the level of all new fire shapings. OTOH, there's a real game mechanical benefit to taking your spellcraft from 10 all the way to 14 (which only an agent/infiltrator can do, essentially), OTOH, in the late game, does a lifecrafter care about taking her magic shaping from 10 to 14? Not really.

Possibilities include:
* Shaping skills improve the rate at which creations gain XP. This would help those who nurture early creations without making those early creations too nasty out-of-the-box.
* High shaping skills reduce the essence costs of your creations. Something like 2% for each point by which your skill exceeds the minimum to make the creation would make these skills balanced against intelligence, I think.
* Your shaping skill applies as a flat bonus to the hit-rolls and resistances of all shapings of that type.

I'm sure you could brainstorm more benefits that very high shaping skills would provide. If you're going to have a game that goes this long (or, I am hoping, longer), and there's a class path that gets a discount to shaping skills, there should be a reason to take shaping skills arbitrarily high.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Saturday, October 18 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8599
Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by Leftover Sauerkraut:


I would also like to be able to make charged creations in combat. I mean everyone else can shape, why can't you?

Yeah!
Posts: 18 | Registered: Saturday, April 28 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8761
Profile #21
A few ideas. First off, it is bad that you can only make 7 creations. But if you can make more, how would that work? Simple,each slot where you would normally have a creature is worth 8 points lets just say.. Now if you make a rat, a rat might only be worth 2 point... whilst a thad might be 6...that way you could be able to swarm at low levels, or have several lame units holding off the enemy while you use good units to destory them. Also this prevents you from being able to create, say 50 something uber powerful units and have no challenge. This system can be modified slighty to get the exact result you want, but I think it is pretty good. Another thing that I would maybe want to see implemented is battle shaping, as in being able to shape during a battle, but it shoulld take up all you action points to make something, so its not overpowered. Another cool thing would be instead of being able to learn a more powerful version of something make it just be different, like one spits acid, another regenerates a bit, etc. Also I like the idea of tiers and more advanced sets then just magic, battle and fire.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Sunday, May 20 2007 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #22
How about the ability to lure rogue creations in to your care with food? Seriously. Why not? I mean, you can adopt creatures like Greenfang and all the others in previous geneforges...

--------------------
If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2156
Profile #23
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

How about the ability to lure rogue creations in to your care with food? Seriously. Why not? I mean, you can adopt creatures like Greenfang and all the others in previous geneforges...
If only we also had some way to capture them. Some sort of ball-thing specifically for capturing. *cough*

Actually, I don't think that's a bad idea, although balance wise it wouldneed to be pretty specific or pretty limited.

--------------------
I am the power Sodom used on Lot...

Name the movie, win a prize.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, October 26 2002 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #24
I don't mean ALL rogue creations... Just some. Have, say, one of each creation type, hidden through different areas of the game. A fyora. An artilla. A roamer, etc. They would start out with a blue ring. With the right leadership and the right kind of food, they could be lured in to your care. Failure to tame them would make them hostile.

You could even make them special types... In this manner, the player could have submission vlish, burnout fyoras, icingdeath roamers, the different sorts of unique creature types.

In battle, special care of these creatures would be needed. Instead of being filled with terror and running away, said creature would return to a rogue state, maybe even turning on you.

--------------------
If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00

Pages