Why is Battle shaping unpopular?

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AuthorTopic: Why is Battle shaping unpopular?
Member # 5870
Profile #25
Originally written by Cryptozoology:

You mean you can't cast a spell and then move unless you make a melee attack.

Not exactly. You can't move along, but you can move performing other actions that require moving. Melee attack is one of these. Also casting spells on a friendly unit that is out of range. You can still hit and run by manipulating a creation in the right distance and the direction you want to run after attacking, then a minor heal.

[ Wednesday, March 14, 2007 17:55: Message edited by: Hume ]
Posts: 122 | Registered: Tuesday, May 31 2005 07:00
Member # 8229
Profile #26
Cryptozoology and Delicious Vlish pretty much made the whole point.

It is true you CAN do almost anything in Geneforge and yet somehow manage to get away with it, it’s really hard to get an absolutely unplayable build.

However, Battle creations are utterly inferior to mostly everything else for the same buck. Speaking of Rotghroth, basically the only battle creation worth a mention, isnt he happens to be the same tier as Wingbolt anyways?

What we expect and what we get:
- “Meat Shields”. Och yes, really, we’d like a meaty bulldog Battle dud to be able to withstand noticeably more love then, say, some worm, or same worm with wings, or even hollow-boned reptile (speaking of drayks)… but he isnt.
- “Meat Shields” take two. Worse then that, there is a major “special”-typed damage coming your way through the game, e.g. non-physical. Among Fire and Magic guys there’s a plenty of resistance, but Battle? Well, Clawbugs and Rots got some, but that’s it.
- “Meat Shield” take three, aka HoMM4 Tactics. Due to Geneforge’s engine, every ranged guy can shoot right through a living/walking/even attacking obstacle. Plus, the same guy can almost always move out of melee contact and use his powerful ranged attack on would-be skirmisher…

Resume: why would anyone want a meat shield that got no meat and shields noone?

- “Heavy Hitters”. OK Huston, we got an improvement there tnx to new AP system. Still, in terms of raw damage melee attack is often weak. Reason: Hasted ranged is guaranteed to deliver 2 blows. Hasted melee – not so much. Taking an average of 1.5 blows (sometimes opponents will not move out too far and sometimes they will) I’d like to see melee hitter to deliver 1,33 times the damage. Well, they don’t. Och, and it’s sometimes plainly impossible to focus critical target with melee creatures, you know, terrain, obstacles, other opponents.
- “Heavy Hitters” take two. Resistance, shmesistance, and Cryoa biting the shades. Melee dmg resistance is quite plain throughout creeps. There will be no wonders. Good thing, there will be no “takes no damage” embarassment aswell. However, quite an every opponent got, like, no resistance to some “special” damage whatsoever, so your cryodrayks/wingbolts WILL sometimes do the abovementioned miracles, and it’s not a Binomial theorem to actually manage that.
- “Heavy Hitters” take three, aka “Wow, I was sure Glaahks were battle”. Ok, guess what, I will be willing to soak ALL other problems if this one is adressed. Well, we are at a huge disadvantage of melee, we can not even deliver a heavy blow, but at least can we deliver a blow that counts nontheless? Rotghroth again being an acceptable exception, no. We will have to take classes from said Glaahks, Ur-Drakons (well THOSE pack a punch, never prevents them from adding insult to the injury), you guess – Wingbolts (Roth’s are graduated there), oldschool Vlish, etc. Battle duds used to “stun”, but that is quite a useless thing on new AP system…

Resume: why would anyone want a heavy hitter that hits soft?

Nail into a coffin, skill points:
You can easily go mono-Fire. Imba tech, fire got quite everythign you might need.
You can go mono-Magic, aside from having to avoid truly massive, energy-depleting battles you’ll do fine.
Mono-Battle basically gets you nowhere, there is nothing to go to Roths and nothing to do when those are getting obsolete.

Battle creatures can be fun, as pretty much anything you fancy. But looking for the least saveloads on high difficility, you will always find better options.

In case *someone* wonders there for my opinion on possible solutions, I’d really like it to be Battle guys to deliver the strongest debuffs upon connecting. THAT will make my picture of a Guardian (errm… how they’re called now;-)) leading a patrol of Battle Alphas.

P.S. Also the “glass cannon strategy” refers to the idea of putting down the whole opposition before they actually have a chance to deal that damage we can’t stand.

P.P.S. And yes, I was just about to start the topic on "why couldnt Battle be better" myself :)

[ Wednesday, March 14, 2007 18:11: Message edited by: Acidic Helixbolt ]

"At ease, guys, it's just some nonsence green wingbolt..."
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Posts: 36 | Registered: Sunday, March 4 2007 08:00
Member # 3612
Profile #27
Who if any of the battle creations can do a double attack? When you have the correct skills you can hit something in melee (not missle) and you attack twice.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #28
Rotghroths can get double attacks, but it happens probably somewhat less than half the time and still does less total damage than a single Wingbolt attack.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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Profile #29
Wingbolt and Gazer's

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Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #30
It's worth pointing out that meat shields can be used aggressively a bit more now than before. It's not about trying to form a wall around the quarterback.

A pair of Rotghroths, for instance, generally move first and can be placed far forward, right in the enemies' faces, without even wasting their attack. And this usually keeps the enemy occupied exchanging whacks with your very tough Rotghroths, getting gradually worn down, while your Wingbolts and your PC go unmolested. Even enemies with dangerous ranged attacks will usually target the Rotghroth in their face instead of a more distant party member, and in confined quarters they can often be forced into melee.

I think my Lifecrafter's use of a Rotghroth pair was a big reason why he was so free to move about the battlefied healing and dispatching wounded, without getting shot. If the Geneforge AI were more advanced, one might speak about using battle creations to seize the initiative.

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00