Respect.
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| Author | Topic: Respect. |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, December 18 2006 09:45
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There was a startling new revelation in Geneforge 4 that, in a way, could change everything: The uncontrollable rage experienced by those shaped by canisters or the geneforge has no effect when dealing with a similarly shaped or otherwise skilled individual. What a breakthrough for the Tullegolites! The theory of a bunch of powerful godlike beings warring with each other and destroying the world in their wake is no more! Those blessed by the geneforge will experience no rage towards each other, they in fact feel a healthy dose of respect for their skills! There is still the rage felt towards lesser beings, but this is acceptable- nay, desirable for a true Tullegolite. The new revelation that similarly shaped people can now work together is a bonus, as it will make building an army of elite shapers much easier. But Tullegolar, doesn't that make you a rebel that you approve of canisters and geneforges? Nonsense. One of the various ideologies that was missed out on in Geneforge 4 was the one that approves of shaping yourself but does not approve of creation rights. Shaping yourself will make controlling the stronger creations much easier, the Shapers really miss out on this benefit. The foolish rebels fight amongst themselves, more interested in destruction and carnage rather than the final goal. Tullegolites will be united in purity and stronger than the shapers. Surely you can see the superiority of this ideology over any other. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Monday, December 18 2006 11:04
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I got the impression that the canister-driven rage was against those who are (perceived as) lesser, rather than just those who hadn't been augmented at all. Look at the drakons' treatment of drayks and you. Also, with Burke or whoever it was near the beginning, you both get irrationally angry at each other. With a hatred of lesser beings, and the general human tendency to overestimate one's own ability, it seems that radioactive smoking wasteland is more likely than peaceful cooperation. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 18 2006 11:13
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Agreed. Also, since conventional armies are a major part of conflicts even between shapers and morale is a major part of armies, who do you think wins? The army where the commanders tend to messily explode underlings who fail or the army where the commanders are sane? —Alorael, who thinks there is a precedent for this type of situations. See Galactic Empire v. Plucky Rebel Scum. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, December 18 2006 14:39
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I am confident that loyalty would be maintained with promises of great power to those that served well. The Shapers have a large army, and what do they give them in return? Their lives? My option is clearly the best because you have the potential to gain great power and you don't have to worry about ending up a slave to creations like you are when you're a rebel. [ Monday, December 18, 2006 14:53: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, December 18 2006 15:21
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While you might have a slightly easier time controlling your rage versus those that grant you some respect, I think that was more of a game artifact to allow you not to automatically kill everyone once you cross the canister limit. Most individuals will not be able to deal with lesser beings and even their "equals" without blasting a few. Respect was more an example of fear as exemplified by Drewey in Dillame. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 04:59
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There is plenty of evidence from previous games that the canisters DO affect you when dealing with a similarly augmented individual. In G1, your interactions with Trajkov come to mind. IIRC, late game dialogue options with Barzahl in G2 and Litalia in G3 are similarly affected. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 11:50
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quote:The Shapers, however, haven't been popping canisters like candy. They might be oppressive, but people can serve them without too much danger of being torn apart in an insane rage for some imagined slight. Great power isn't so attractive when you're being commanded by someone who'll kill you for looking at him funny. And before you say "well, just become more powerful than your commander", an army won't do too well if the main concern of everyone in it is jostling to the top. It's the rebellion, with its crazy leaders, that's falling apart at the seams. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 11:55
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quote:Where is the reasoning for that? Isn't this how all armies work to a degree? Also, the main concern would be survial. Both sides are bound to hate a faction that uses canisters and opposes creation rights. It's all a matter of ideology, when you're fighting for what you believe in, little else matters. I think people would support my beliefs, all people like power, and people are constantly becomming more and more hostile towards creation rights due to the insanity of the drakons. Edit Edit Edit: Hopefully, no one saw any of those. [ Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:09: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 15:13
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I don't think your army would last too long between the fragging of the senior officers by the juniors and the fights to get new canisters. Go back to GF1 and the Sholai becoming canister addicts. It took a lot of leadership to get any canisters away from them. They became more concerned with increasing their power than with external threats. ET - your army would have the lower ranks in terror of upsetting a senior and quite canister mad officer. A few would be trying to get canisters to get revenge on the seniors. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 15:46
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Barzahl's army didn't have any infighting. They had a clear goal, and they went for it in the Barzite ending. So it is possible. Edit: Dissatisfaction with rank is desirable in my army. The canisters will be more closely guarded than gold, obviously, so them getting stolen by low ranking fools is not a possibility. The only way to get back at the officers would be to earn canisters, and the only way to earn canisters is through valiance in battle. Then, if you are powerful enough to kill your officer, so be it. If you succeed, then the officer was both foolish to anger you and too weak to continue to be in command anyway. Should things in the army get too out of hand, then the intellectuals or even myself (who would have already used far more canisters than anyone else) shall move in and reimpose order. [ Tuesday, December 19, 2006 15:53: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 17:16
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A strictly imposed martial plan like that would work, and this unscrupulous army of canister shaped soldiers led by Geneforged demigods and bolstered by enslaved creations would be unstoppable. However, you still need to deal with the issue of how long a canister crazed individual can stay sane. Why would a powerful officer want to give his underlings an opportunity to dethrone him? You argue that it is because they are trenchant enough to see the ultimate good, but I think the canisters remove their sense of communalism as much as they increase their ego. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 17:19
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Ah, ET has convinced me. However, I always love to abuse canisters and I use the Geneforge at every chance (even if it causes my death), so my opinion may be badly biased. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 18:56
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quote:Excellent. One down. Though I must say that convincing someone named Good Canisters that canisters are good is not the most satisfying accomplishment. Randomizer: Powerful officers will have no qualms about giving others power. They will not be afraid of being overthrown. The arrogance caused by the canisters assures this. Sure, those new to the canisters will be rash and disagreeable. But those at the top of the food chain, those that have used the most canisters and have had the most time to hone their abilities I imagine will be more like Litalia. Enlightened. They will be what the army draws its strength from, physically and spiritually. But Tullegolar, no one ends up like Litalia! Well, they will have to in order to survive. Otherwise, they will go the way of Trajkov and Barzahl. Only those that learn how to control themselves can reach the top and become great leaders, like Litalia. I only hope that pessimism isn’t a prerequisite for that enlightenment. Litalia annoys me. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 19:18
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Litalia was a minor stooge, and most people ended up killing her. Also, she had doubts about what she was doing. Tullegolar, you seem to have everything figured out. How do you plan to deal with the inevitable dissentious apprentice of G1-3 fame? What happens when some young canister-popping punk strolls in and tries to destroy your entire army? How will you stop him? -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 19:26
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Citing the player is lame, Kuber. If anything, the person ruling the Tullegolite army would be the player. I still think that vying for power would cause too much internal stability to keep the war machine going. In your proposed system, ET, even if canister addicts have greater respect for each other, this does not prevent them from having secessionist tendencies. "I respect you Tully, the Supreme Glowing Fiend, but I think I will go start my own uberarmy." "How dare you?! Die!" -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 19:38
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Actually ET would first find out as the new rival crushes or takes over his army on the way to eliminating him. The last words ET hears are, "you weren't good enough for even an underling." Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 20:13
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I would, of course, encourage people to try and overthrow me. It's an excellent way to keep myself fit and alert. But really, I think it would only take a few particularly gruesome examples before challenges to my power stop altogether. If the PC kills me, then so be it. I'll be throwing back cold ones with Diablo, the Master and Rentar-Ihrno in the next life. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 20:47
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quote:This is not an OK juxtaposition. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 20:54
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You're not an Ok juxtaposition! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 21:01
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ur moms not an ok juxtaposition -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 21:10
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quote:Not an okay juxtaposition either. "Ur" and "juxtaposition" aren't even the same language! Ego, your use of gruesome examples only works if your underlings are sane. Once you start handing out the canisters that's a patently bad assumption. The victims of gruesome examples are in fact likely to be looked upon as warnings of how not to do it, not what not to do, and the examples themselves will be inspirations. —Alorael, who has low confidence in any power structure based on the idea that everyone wants to kill everyone else. War is an excellent place to forget to provide key backup, or maybe to provide it to the other side. War is also not a place generally known for enhancing sanity and equanimity even in perfectly normal folks. [ Tuesday, December 19, 2006 21:13: Message edited by: Lock before the in. ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 21:28
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quote:That might be a good argument, but I can still fall back to my original point here: quote:They will respect me. Each canister they take only makes them more my slaves. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7764
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written Tuesday, December 19 2006 23:01
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And HOW do you plan to defend against me when I come with my Eyebeasts to obliverate your army (and you) with magic??? -------------------- I have a karma of 2!Yay! Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 00:09
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Something I've always found unrealistic in the series is the power-crazy canister users who have some spare and are willing to give them away. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 13:59
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There are hints that taking too many canisters too fast is dangerous. The Master upstairs in Southforge says that he is increasing his power "As safely as possible". Also, Nalyd has visions of Rebels exploding from using so many canisters that they become a bloated blob of blindingly bright dough. And then they explode. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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