Respect.
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| Author | Topic: Respect. |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 14:19
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ET, like Alo said, your plan only functions if it is possible to deter other canister using shapers with gruesome examples. The matter of respect still does not negate that each and every one of them will think himself the strongest dude who ever lived. It might be fun to stick yourself up on a pedestal where you can watch your underlings battle it out, but in the end it is still the armies that wins wars. There is a huge difference between respect and deference. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 15:49
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The only thing keeping people loyal to me is the promise of power in the form of canisters. This is where the canisters makers come in. Making canisters is a rare skill that requires a well equiped workshop. He who controles the means of creating canisters controls the Tullegolite armies. I'm not sure how many workshops a large force needs, but the rebels only seem to have a few, maybe even just one person (Master Jared) who makes them at all. I will keep the secret of creating canisters between myself and the people who actually make them, and I will make sure I am always more powerful than the makers. I will keep them somehwere nearby at all times so that if someone wants to attack me or them, they must attack both of us. People would not want to endanger the source of the canisters, so I should be safe from attack. I might have to worry about the makers betraying me, but I think as long as I keep them in a constant state of luxury and give them all the supplies they need to continue their mad crusades and grand experiments, we should get along just fine. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:19
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That works only until your addicts go so canister-crazy that they think they can kill you and somehow still get canisters, or maybe they don't bother to think ahead and just kill you. —Alorael, who wonders what you do when you've given underlings so many canisters that they're on the verge of being able to make their own. Do you stop giving them canisters, removing their incentive not to kill you? Do you start worrying when there's a small army of addicts no longer getting their canister fix and eyeing you angrily? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:29
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We actually can't give away too many canisters. They should only be a reward for a great achievement, such as killing a leader. Too many canisters would cause addiction and extreme destabilization. After playing through more areas of G3 that I normally avoid, I'm seeing problems with the rebels working together. The factions need to be divided, one for serviles and one for creations. Shapers should also start to partake in canisters and alterations, providing they can make it "safe", which is a great challenge. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:33
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quote:I think I can safely say that no single minion will be able to kill me. Several, maybe even just two would, but this leads to comlications for the would be assasins. I don't think that people so whacked out on canisters as you are describing would be able to organize such a resistance, work together, or even come to som econsensus that I should be killed. Thus, through madness, I acheive order. As for any of my minions becomming too powerful, this is a tough one. As they continue to grow in power, I will send them on more and more dangerous missions, of course. If they wish to retire from fighting and take a noble seat at my side they are welcome, but it will cost them, they will receive no more canisters. This way, the only way anyone will ever gain enough power to challenge me will be if they return from epic battles again and again victorious every time. In which case, perhapes they simply deserve my position. It will be an honor to die fighting them. Edit: Good Canisters has a good point as well. It's not like I'm going to be giving out canisters left and right. I could give one per person of great merit per year, and I would still be giving away much more power than the Shapers. People would need to do much in order to gain so many canisters to become as crazy as everyone is describing, and even then they will be spread out, so they will have had time to cope with the changes in their minds. [ Wednesday, December 20, 2006 16:35: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:43
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Since you have conceded the possibility of a coup d'etat, the only point left to argue is whether these threats to the current leadership of your army will seriously hamper it. You cannot possibly promote a doctrine of murderous rank ascension while having coaxing everyone to limit the coups to one a month. The only way I could see you controlling everyone effectively is to achieve mind control of your generals. Even a canister maker or general kept in constant luxury will still think about why he must continue to depend on you for such rewards. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:53
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I don't hire morons to be my generals. Any good commander knows that together, and army is strong, fractured, it falls. Yes, Tullegolite philosophy requires that the world be in a constant state of conflict to function, much like the Mongolian Hordes. But that it why it is designed to work in the Geneforge world, a world already torn apart by a war that has no such end in sight. Also, coups are a threat that any unpopular government has to deal with. The Shapers deal with it by locking themselves in fortresses, drakons deal with it through political intrigue, and I deal with it by keeping myself alert and stronger than anyone else. Each method has it merits. I don't see why I would be any more hampered by discontent than any of the other factions already are. At least my army has the purity of self-shaping to unite us. The Shapers have only fear keeping them together, and the rebels... they are already falling apart. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 18:46
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I would imagine the Tullegolites would feel too headstrong and arrogant to fully submit themselves to your rule without believing that they could do a better job themselves. It would not necessarily be a fault of the leader, but rather of the concept. It is like forming a united front of individualists. Also, constant vigilance is a given for any leader. It would just be even more wearisome for you. I agree that they would be united in the philosophy of the righteousness of self-shaping, but again that does not afford your army any extra advantage over the other groups, whose ideologies help promote loyalty. Isn't the whole idea behind the canisters that absolute power corrupts absolutely? A stable leadership is necessary to keep the soldiers in line, and I just do not see that happening. My plan would involve setting up a rotation of generals to become puppet leaders who would attract the assassinations while you work behind the scenes. You must counter the dissent within the ranks by swiftly executing rebel and sending possible rebels on impossibly dangerous missions. Your army must be significantly weaker than what you originally imagined, but that is the only way you can maintain control. I hope that is an acceptable trade. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Monday, December 25 2006 19:22
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I see only one problem with your plan. Your plan is to jealously protect your cansiters and give them as payment to your army. Which works real well. In ancient Rome those who payed the army controlled Rome. As long as you rewared your armies with cansiters and be careful doing so you will be fine. One problem, canisters are very hard to controll much harder then controlling knowledge the old fashion way, an advantage the shapers have. If someone in your amry wants to gain power without your perimssion all they have to do is steal a few cansiters and use them real quick (which will take 1 or 2 hours at most) compared to shapers haveing to steall lots of heavy books and vauble machinery and study for years all the time avoiding being caught. The second problem you have is your system pretty much uses canisters as currency. One person gets to your canister factory and sabatoges it and your entire amry fractures. Trajkov had control of his army but feared loseing it when he ran out of canisters and he was very desperate on gaining the abilty of makeing more canisters. I destroy your canister labs your army collaspes; you burn the shaper's books they go on. In that is your weakness. [ Monday, December 25, 2006 19:24: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, December 25 2006 21:53
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Well, as I said before, the canister workshop would be heavily guarded. As the heart of my empire, every Tullegolite would know the place's value and would guard it with their lives. There is also the fact that few would be willing to destroy a place that could give them so much power. On top of all that, I myself would always be nearby to protect it personally should it ever be threatened. You're right though, of course. Someone could infiltrate and destroy it, bringing down my empire. But given the world of Geneforge, that's the whole point, right? I'm just trying to present an alternative to the repressive ways of the Shapers and the chaos of the Drakons. Surely, though my side is not flawless, you can see it's superiority? We value strength in a world where you must be strong to survive, yet we maintain the important Shaper vision of a world where creations are kept in check, kept from forming bizarre armies and murdering innocent people. It is the best of both sides. What more could you ask for? But Tullegolar, I want a world where everyone lives in peace. Well, you can thank Ghaldring for making sure that such a world is now long gone. You have to fight now. Will you take a side that does not give you sufficient strength, or the side where racist drakons control your future? Or would you have the courage to be a Tullegolite? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Monday, December 25 2006 22:44
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Your view makes sense because it would create a society of very strong members. Do you give my plan any credit as a method for attaining that? This whole conversation boils down to whether you think a society based on canisters, and therefore maniacal power, is stable. I do not think it would be, and even though you may, you do not mind that it would be massively violent and uncompassionate either. Where's the love? :D -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Monday, December 25 2006 22:52
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I chose the shapers out of hope. The shapers are the only ones who would ever try to restore peace. If the rebels win then the will fracture and the world will split into a massive bloody war that makes the current one look like a minor skirmish. If you win then as soon as you lose your monoply(if you haven't already) on cansiters rival factions will arise out of your empire out of simlar minds to oppuse you and we have another massive and bloody war. Shapers are the only ones were victory would not immeditanly lead headlong into an extremly bloody civil war. In this post I pointed out your victory is not deisirable and in the previous I pointed out it wasn't inevitable. Call me weak if you like; but I don't like the idea of constanly looking over my shoulder or unending wars. [ Monday, December 25, 2006 22:55: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Monday, December 25 2006 23:02
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Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the occasinal canister as long as you don't let it go to your head and don't become dependent on it. One must be flexiable and adaptable; and useing cansiters to get an edge is not a bad thing as long as you control it To become depedent on them like you have is weakness. Shapers are less powerful then you or the rebels but they are more stable and so is their source of power which in the end will allow them to win. [ Tuesday, December 26, 2006 08:50: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Canned
Member # 7704
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written Tuesday, December 26 2006 00:16
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Martian can control their powers not like you puny little humans!!! Any way i think that the shapers and the rebells if the shapers stop treating them as rogues and creations that can be bended into their will and on the rebel side to stop the war and trying to convince creations that are rogue to speak of peace instead of war. :) -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
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