Shock Trooper
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Apprentice
Member # 7717
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 14:32
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Perhaps due to the severe emotional, psychological, and physiological imbalances I have that modern medicine can not correct I will play a shock trooper in G4. Perhaps because I have not played the game I do not fully cognate the masochism I am condeming myself to. Is there any hope? What are their starting stats? -------------------- My babysitter vlish have carried my carcass this far... Posts: 9 | Registered: Wednesday, November 29 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 14:36
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I haven't played it yet but judging by the warrior's preformance its pretty bad. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 15:36
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You're basically like a lifecrafter with worse magic. Since magic is a more important secondary ability than combat for shaper types, and also the hardest to boost with items, you're going to feel a bit like a second-rate lifecrafter. It's still entirely playable, but not optimal. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 16:50
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I played one through to the bitter end. On normal. It was like pulling out your own teeth. It is something I will never do again. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 16:59
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You better play with a Rebel frame of mind because you will need items like mindwarp seal and agent's cloak from killing Eliza and the reward, and gloves of succor from giving Fackler the research notebooks. This will give you +1 battle magic, +4 mental magic, +1 healing craft, and +1 spellcraft. The Captain's shiv and boots will give +4 blessing magic to swap before combat. That will help raise your magic spell ability so you have a chance. You probably will rely on creations for most of your fighting. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 17:16
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-X- always goes for every chance he gets to prove his loyalty to the Shapers. Long live the Empire! -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 17:45
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I havent played the game, but just from projection... The only tangible reason I could see playing a shocktrooper is to get your parry up so you don't always die when you get hit once. Granted, I do not think that trading magic for parry and some HP is a great trade... When you play a shaper type, where your creations do most of the damage, blessing magic, especially mass energize is an almost essential part of thier battle strategy. -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 21:43
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You'll want to get up to Mass Energize and Spin Shield in Blessing Magic, but you can probably skip the rest. You'll have good healing. So otherwise, pump Missile and Dexterity, I would say. Missiles are good now simply because thorns ramp up their damage over the course of the game so much faster than melee weapons; the fact that crystals are more precious than ever also helps a lot. Hoard crystals and use them only when needed! And forge every one you can! -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Tuesday, December 5 2006 21:53
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If you are posting about this based on your experience as a beta tester, bear in mind that I gave the shock trooper much higher starting stats only a little bit before the game shipped. I am interested to hear what happened for people who weren't in beta. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 05:41
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My experience was with the Shock Trooper version 2.0. I did several shock trooper runs actually. I really wanted to like her because she was different. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7661
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 09:09
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Being on PC I have not got to play Geneforge 4 yet, but it does sound silly that Shock Trooper would be a weak class because the name says otherwise. :( Posts: 25 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 09:44
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The shock trooper isn't physically a disaster, although it's no warrior or servile. The problem is the fact that its strength don't complement and certainly don't cover its weaknesses. —Alorael, who really wants to try a magic/shaping class now just to see how unbalanced it is. Maybe he'll do it with heavy recourse to illicit stat adjustment and some number crunching. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 18:49
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The obsession is with the Servile currently, but I'm telling you guys that the real power is found in the Infiltrator. It is easier to make effective melee and missle skills than magic, and magic is king in GF4. My Servile did not feel as potent as my Infiltrator. Try it for yourself and report your experience when you've compared. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 20:19
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Just finished the duel in Quessa-Uss as a servile with battle magic. With leadership 12 the fight was over in about 5 rounds. Need to go back and try Matala again. I got bogged down with the rotgroths. Should have charmed them instead of killing them. I was able to clear Sandros Mine without creations. At the end of the fight with the Old Golem I let him suicide himself against spine shield while I just healed up, Spells are way better than weapons since if you have the spell energy you can do multiple attacks with essence orbs, etc. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, December 6 2006 21:00
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quote:I agree the Infiltrator is overlooked, and not a bad class. But I take issue with the above statement. It takes significant investment in melee skills, and especially in Quick Action, if you want to have a reliable melee attack. Battle Magic is the same way. However, the importance with other spells mainly lies in getting high enough skill to cast the spells. Blessing spells increase in duration with skill but not in power, for the most part. I'll say it agian. For the same investment in magic skills, an Infiltrator only gets 2 more per magic skill plus 2 more in Spellcraft compared to a Servile. The Servile gets larger bonuses to melee stats. The Servile gets 1/3 more HP, while the Infiltrator gets only 1/6 more Essence. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7717
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 05:05
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quote:What I saw in one of slarty's spread sheets indicated that the shock trooper had fairly high hp, the highest essence, and strangely high energy. I would assume this (high energy) was done to support frequent healing and would guess that this was a pretty recent change. My experiences with the other games would lead me to believe that the problem is the amount of focus you have to have to get combat effectiveness and the large effects you can get from generally small investments in magic. Once you can cast blessing and shielding they don't really get better, they just last longer. Same with speed. The battle magic definately scales well with additional points. As for mental magic I have found that when I could cast strong daze (with minimal investment) it took out half to all of my creation enemies. Combat skills, however, put me under the constant pressure to crank up 3-5 skills. Would it help the shock trooper significantly if he started with a 1 in blessing magic (possibly with or without a decreased cost for just this magic skill)? -------------------- My babysitter vlish have carried my carcass this far... Posts: 9 | Registered: Wednesday, November 29 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 05:53
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quote:I've never found this actually to be the case. I can practically count on one hand the number of times any PC I've ever created seems to have missed hitting something with a melee weapon for starters. After the first few cheap boosts to Melee, I invest in Strength which is more useful all around. I get very good results with Quick Action which readily enough winds up around 8-10 for me with either build. I get double strikes frequently with a modest investment in QA. Again, I did not find the Servile to be overall more powerful in more situations for its cheaper fighting skills compared to the Infiltrator for its cheaper, earlier magic strength. I invest very little in Endurance for any build. I don't find it significant to my playing style. Melee damage is so big eventually, a few extra points in Melee or Strength don't add up to one less swordstroke to make the kill typically. The earlier build up in magic skills and power really shows throughout the game though. quote:It's the cheap magic that leaves one caught up/ahead in magic and resultingly you have more XP to invest in a bit more Strength or Meleee or QA as necessary. With Magic, ultimately, conveniently, one might want to wind up with three times nine levels in each (not to mention that Spellcraft is one of the most powerful things to be able to boost and it's very expensive to most builds. That's like 24 bumps up (not even including Spellcraft,) unless you like to rely on losing AP swapping gear around in the middle of fights every time you want to cast a certain class of spells. I do not need to make 24 bumps up in Melee/Strength/QA/Parry to make a very powerful melee fighter...much less, really, and there is lots of gear to permanently boost many of these stats, especially Strength. In actual play, the Infiltrator was more bang for the buck. I don't care how the numbers add up technically. The extra essence and earlier cheaper magic was more helpful than being a little bit beefier with a sword early on. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 07:45
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quote:Yes, you will rarely miss. That's irrelevant; you will rarely miss with ANY PC attack that you invest in. (Anyway, spells miss less often; they have higher base to-hit rates and all your investment goes into skills that boost the to-hit rate, whereas Quick Action does not boost to-hit.) By "reliable" I am not talking about hitting every turn, I am talking about reliably doing your best damage. Quick Action of 8-10 means you will get a double strike approximately 40-50% of the time. That's not reliable at all! You absolutely need those double strikes if you want your damage (in any given turn) to meet the damage you can get out of battle magic. In a prolonged fight i.e. vs Matala, it matters how many you get overall but not on any given turn, so 50% vs 70% is not a huge difference. If you are fighting a bunch of Wingbolts, being able to take out one per turn might mean the difference between life and death. A 50/50 chance to double strike is just not gonna cut it. quote:How does an Infiltrator have "earlier" magic strength, but a Servile doesn't have the same thing for combat skills? That was a completely gratuitous adjective. Looking at effective skill differences, compared to a Servile, an Infiltrator will have about: -4 Melee skill (str + melee weapons) -4 Quick Action -5 Parry -1/4 HP +2 Battle Magic +2 Mental Magic +2 Blessing Magic +2 Spellcraft +1/6 Essence However, these differences are eroded for skills you only need to build up to a certain low point. If you aren't using Battle Magic to attack, then ALL the magic skills fall into that category, and Spellcraft isn't worth buying with skill points. quote:You need to explain this, because it sounds like bunk. You're right about melee damage, but the same thing certainly applies to battle magic damage, and a few extra points in blessing or mental magic are mostly useless, beyond what you need in order to get the most useful spells. quote:This makes NO SENSE. You are saying that the Infiltrator's magic bonus lets it buy melee skills. But doesn't the Servile's melee bonus let it buy magic skills the same way? In terms of raw skill point cost, the bonus a Servile gets to combat is slightly bigger than the bonus an Infiltrator gets to magic. If you want both classes to get combat and magic skills, the Infiltrator is just not going to come out ahead. That's the balance of the numbers. quote:Okay, let's try this out. Pumping the three magic stats up to 9 each will cost 16 + 20 + 16 = 52 for an Infiltrator 23 + 28 + 23 = 74 for a Servile That's a difference of 22 skill points. Now let's look at melee stats. We'll consider an extremely minimal investment in melee stats -- enough to get each class to equal strength, a few cheap points in melee weapons -- getting it to 7, which is 4 buys for either class -- and enough to get Quick Action to 10. I still think that's a lamentably low QA, but you said it was enough, so we'll use that number. Str + Melee + QA 00 + 06 + 16 = 22 for a Servile 08 + 10 + 34 = 52 for an Infiltrator That's a difference of 30. The magic numbers ignored Spellcraft, in which the Infiltrator gets an effective +2, and the combat numbers ignored Parry, in which the Servile gets an effective +5. There are also the HP and Essence differences. I don't think either of those is game-breaking, but a Servile has 10 HP for every 8 of the Infiltrator, while the Infiltrator has 7 Essence for every 6 of the Servile. The essence really won't make any difference at all unless you are making a bunch of creations -- and if you are doing that, neither battle magic nor melee weapons are going to make a huge difference to you. The HP bonus is similarly useful, but not critical, given the availability of Augmentation, Essence Armor, etc. Also, the Servile gets an extra point in Mechanics (likely worth 5 or 6 skill points). quote:*facepalm* Then why the heck are you debating how the numbers add up??? If you want to say "I enjoyed playing as an Infiltrator more. It felt more powerful to me," nobody's going to argue with you. But that's not what you've been saying. [ Thursday, December 07, 2006 07:56: Message edited by: Slartel Runeaxe ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 07:56
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Magic is much more effective in combat than strong melee skills. This is my point. A number of magic spells affect/stop numerous or all opponents at once. Nothing you do with Servile Melee ability ever affects more than one target at a time. Having stronger magic earlier adds up to more versatility, respons-ability and survivability in more situations. Powerful buffing/shielding/speeding are what make battles so successful to my experience, not how much damage you can do with a sword. It's all rather mute. With a little practice and familiarity, the game is really too easy with at least three out of the five builds. Super-exacting methodology really doesn't make that much difference. Once again, I AM saying that experientially, the Infiltrator worked better all around AND was more fun. And I'd like to hear from others in time who have tried both. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 08:06
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Synergy, I am not saying your experience is invalid. But just as the numbers are no good detached from the game, the reverse is true; you need to look at how your experience intersects with the class advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is questioning that magic is more important than melee. But as Penumbral Thahd pointed out, and as you acknowledged in your suggestion of 9s across the board in magic, the important thing is just getting to the point that you can cast the spells. Infiltrators DO NOT get magic earlier than Serviles. They start with the same skill in BM/MM/BM, the Servile just has to pay 1 more skill point per level. So there is WAY more than enough time for the Servile to accrue the required skill before the spells become available. Blessing magic IS NOT more powerful with a higher skill level. It just lasts a little longer. (If this were not the case, then Blessing Magic and Spellcraft would be by far the most valuable skills and Infiltrators might well be the best class. It's not the case.) You are saying that magic is better, therefore the Infiltrator is better. The problem is that the Infiltrator really isn't any better at magic. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 08:16
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Let me put it this way. Being a Servile gives you cheap: Melee (not very useful after the first couple levels and a skill that affects one target at a time only.) Missles (even less necessary and useful. I never put more than 4-6 points into Missles. Strength is more useful to improve.) Quick Action. Worth building up to around 8. But you can still only kill one thing so many times in one turn. Parry. Magic defensiveness is much more effective. Bonus level of mechanics is nice, but it starts out pretty cheap for everyone anyway. I don't find the edge the Servile has in the above four combat skills as useful and powerful overall in various combat situations as having cheap magic which does want to ramp up fully in three categories ASAP. (Getting three categories to 9 is not an insignificant investment. I don't find it nearly as useful to bring Melee/Missle/QA/Parry all to 9.) I can make a powerful melee fighter out of an Infiltrator no problem with less than 9 Melee or Missle or Parry, but the extra essence and cheap magic ability of the Infiltrator is a big payoff....moreso than the lamer Servile one attack at a time stats help...in my experience, and in my opinion. I'm not saying the Servile isn't very potent or fun or that others won't find it preferable for their gaming style. It works fine. I love melee and I love going solo, and I still found the Infiltrator worked most effectively all around. And having lost lasting spells is a payoff. It means less expenditure of essence and more left for healing, etc. as necessary...or for maintaining creations for where they are necessary. Having longer lasting Mass Energize can be very useful. Shrug. -S- [ Thursday, December 07, 2006 08:23: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 08:23
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Synergy, you respond to everything I say by making the same assertions. So, let's make this simple. If you never ever want to use melee (and don't care about your HP), obviously the Infiltrator is better. If you never ever want to use magic (and don't care about your essence), obviously the Servile is better. Obviously, this is also extremely foolish. If you want to use melee and magic, the two classes will both function fine. The Servile will do this in fewer skill points, however. ... If you are going to keep asserting this "speed of gaining magic" advantage you claim the Infiltrator has, please address my point from the last post. It doesn't exist. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 08:28
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You'd think this was a political debate. Seriously man, lighten up. I made the point that I want to have more magic investment than battle investment to make the ultimately most powerful melee/magician combination. Cheaper magic which is 24 level ups leaves me more points to throw around at battle skills and everything else than saving points on less-useful battle skills leaves one for 24 more expensive magic level ups. What's hard to get about this point? Having more Melee, Missle, and Parry cheaply does not give nearly the advantage of having all three magic classes more cheaply. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 08:28
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quote:What the heck? Have you listened to anything I've said? We can be more precise than saying getting three categories to 9 is significant. It's a difference of 22 skill points. In my comparison, I suggested FAR less than getting to 9 in melee, missile, and parry. I actually suggested getting to 4 in strength, 7 in melee, 0 in missile, and 0 in parry. You keep assering "cheap magic ability" even though the difference is not that huge. And you are again asserting the essence is a "big payoff" without responding to what I said about the extra essence earlier. Making unexplained assertions while refusing to address what the other person says is not debating, it's trolling. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 7 2006 17:36
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quote:You just made my point. With the Servile, you select making battle skills your cheapest investment, and then don't capitalize on that advantage much at all. What a waste of the Servile's discount advantage. Magic wants the most investment, and with magic cheapest, you get the most efficient use of skill point cost. Being able to build up three categories of magic fully more cheaply than any other build, and then using the saved skill points to build 7 in melee makes much more sense than using your cheapest SP use on 7 melee only and paying for more expensive spells in two or three categories up to 9. Here's the picture as the experience. As an Infiltrator, you start out with more and better magic ability and can easily focus on all three categories to keep up with spells becoming available. Your spells are also more powerful where applicable. It is useful to have Daze alone work better earlier. Very useful. There are times when Battle Magic is very useful when you can't or don't want to run up for melee and a missle isn't very effective. Meanwhile, early in the game, it is ideal for any PC to rapidly ramp up Mechanics to 6 or 8 and Leadership to 6. This makes the majority of the SP early on going into these categories to keep up if you want to play the game most aptly sequentially. This makes it hard as a Servile to keep up in magic since the cheap skill points are only going into the melee ability. Everything else is more expensive and progresses slower and lags. Meanwhile, with cheap magic in all three categories, the Infiltrator finds a couple levels of melee and some occasional ramping up of strength are plenty adequate to make her an effective fighter and keep up with all the magic and all the geek techs. The Infiltrator really only needs to spend medium expense skill points for a little melee and quick action and then can leave it alone most the rest of the game with some occasional boosts to quick action now and again if desired. My Infiltrator kicked ass in magic and in melee and had the essence to have a couple powerful creations at the end. My Servile could not boast the same magic ability nor creations capacity and the cheaper melee/battle ability did not compensate for more expensive magic. The Servile is always going to be scrambling till nearly the end of the game to keep up with magic at the same pace, and may well sacrifice a whole category of magic like Battle Magic to do it. The Infiltrator gets the best of magic which is most important and plenty good of melee which is easy to do for any build. Heck, it was easy to make a Lifecrafter competent with a sword later on in the game with some gear alone. I'm ignoring the points of your argument because you are ignoring the simple point of mine, that there is more magic than battle skills you will want to buy in the game, and having cheaper magic is more cost effective than having cheaper battle ability, period. It means more SP left over ultimately to spend on everything else than being a Servile having four cheap skills, two or three of which never get capitalized upon. I stand by my contention. I just experienced it. And the Servile was the second, more optimized experience of the two for me, and it still lacked the overall effectiveness of my less optimized Infiltrator build and experience. Having cheap magic is a greater advantage than having cheap anything else for being most capable in most situations. Bottom line. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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