Singleton party
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 18:41
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You know, single play in A4 is getting dangerously near Geneforge. From what I've seen in this forum, most of you don't want that. I understand you like Avernum better than the Geneforge world (I do, too), but you almost might as well play Geneforge if you're not going to take advantage of multi-PC capabilities. Its that that made me put A4 above the Geneforge series. Now, having set myself up for the inevitable mocking that is given a Genforge fan in the A4 forum, I'll go off and live the rest of my life. -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 20:13
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I play a singleton guardian on normal in G1, use the best melee weapon available and only a few spells, and make only a vlish or two whenever I encounter something a little too tough for me. Mostly just those 800-hp Augmented Sholai in G1. My eventual goal is to play G1 through as a Shaper with no creations, no items except for armor and swords, and no magic while on torment. Dikiyoba apologizes for being off-topic but can't resist. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, December 25 2005 22:31
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So, my singleton game continues. I have nearly finished mopping up two of three bandit leaders in the E. Gallery. I am getting 0-1 point per Thug, six or seven points per goblin bandit, and 3-6 points per chitrach. It's kind of ridiculous, but almost nothing is hitting me right now. Maybe one of eight times, something hits me. I even deflect half or more magic thrown at me. Even the chits are missing, which gives me enough time to run them through before getting poisoned, at least when I am handling one or two at a time. It will be interesting to see how I survive a couple of the chit ambushes coming up. I am getting this great dodge-ability from 4 Dex, 4 Luck, 4 Parry, and 2 Gymnastics, the latter two free from DT. I am surprised how effective this is, considering the relatively low numbers. I'm nearly at Level 18. I keep expecting this effort to break, but it's really going surprisingly well. I'm still leveling up ahead of a party of four, and my kill points are actually more than 0-1 for many of my foes. When I get charmed—as I did by a couple Mindreaper Spiders recently, nothing happens except I waste a few turns waiting for it to wear off. This just might work. [ Sunday, December 25, 2005 23:17: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, December 26 2005 09:13
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My Divinely Touched Kitty has made it to Mertis and has already hit Hosharr’s HQ and the guardian drake at Athron’s Lair. I was working my way to the heart of the Spiral Crypt, but just ran out of Piercing Crystals. Oops. I’d have more if I’d been able to uncover caches in this game. I never had this problem before. He’s at Level 25 which is a bit whacked. Normally, PC’s are in the upper teens or so when they hit Mertis. I think that it is quite possible a singleton will gain higher levels than possible with any more than one PC, maybe just due to the points awarded for all the quests being given to one PC alone. These don’t seem to be altered by Level, unlike monster kills. He’s still dodging nearly everything, though not quite as consistently as he was in the E. Gallery. I am falling quite behind on Priest Spells and need one or two mage spell levels to get Dispel Barrier still, and the Tower Colony is not far off. I also need more strength than the five I have, but just can’t afford to do it now—need to get Dispel Barrier. The real question is whether I can keep up with my spell levels to any reasonable amount. Getting to Divine Retribution is going to take a lot of SP. That might have to happen via Strine’s Knowledge Brews near the end. I’m also not sure that I’m going to be able to keep this dodge-ability up over the next portion of the game as I focus on bringing up some spell levels mostly. I have the Clover Boots, so my Luck is at 7. Blademaster is at 13. I never really needed to buy those two levels of Melee Weapons, probably. Oh, and I’m rolling in loot now..14,000 and counting, with nothing I need to spend it on, or can, since I am behind on my spells. I got the Emerald Chestguard successfully. I did it two ways. The first is so stupidly easy, I am quite sure Jeff forgot to make it necessary to get through Nociduas to get at the armor, instead of just sneaking by him. I also tried taking him and his pet demon off the map, and succeeded on my second or third attempt, but it took 8 Invulnerabilty Potions to do it, which is rather ridiculous. I played onward from the sneaky thief success and saved my potions. Killing Noci and his summons only netted me about 65 XP anyway. Big deal. What Alo said in the other thread about a singleton only winding up with 1/4 a party’s points in the end, that’s my point exactly when I suggest making a singleton with at least 2x the normal 75 starting points. My singleton is way ahead on level, but way behind on skills. It’s triage every time I invest new SP’s. I don’t know if I can get him to Divine Retribution at all, actually. I might have to strategize otherwise, and maybe go up to Divine Fire or take the mage up to Fireblast instead, and focus otherwise on remaining largely unhittable. All my spell levels are at exactly 2. Minor Heal is feeling wimpy now, maybe because I of my relatively low spell levels and the fact I have no Spellcraft at all yet. Oh, there’s something to go spend some money on....and Magery too. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, December 26 2005 10:26
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Quest XP is adjusted by level, but the "base" level is generally somewhat higher than the monsters you fight, so there is much less penalty for being high level. Is Divine Retribution really that necessary? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Monday, December 26 2005 10:56
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Just wondering, if DR was the reason for the priest spells, does that make priest unnecessary and therefore a sinkhole for singleton, instead relying on potions, or is it worth it anyway? -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, December 26 2005 14:36
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quote:Oh, you'd better believe it. I had two priests capable of casting Divine Retribution, and sometimes being able to cast it four times a round when hasted felt like barely enough. There are some tactical situations which are made trivial by DR, and which I really wouldn't like to fight my way through without it. (The big giant encounter in the tunnels leading to Rentar-Ihrno's fortress comes immediately to mind.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, December 26 2005 15:06
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If 4 Divine Retributions a round didn't always seem like enough, it seems personally like a rather foolish tactic to rely on as a singleton. I'd rather pump defense. That way, you have longer to put on the hurt. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, December 26 2005 15:14
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You're probably right. I'm just not sure how a singleton is going to survive half a dozen Cave Giant Slingers; Parry is more or less useless against missiles, and I'm not sure how feasible it will be to dodge them. Getting past that encounter will probably require the use of invulnerability potions. [ Monday, December 26, 2005 15:14: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, December 26 2005 15:25
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Parry is all fine and good... But I find my self dying to often to archers or slingers or something. I have concluded for my self, that it is not a skill worth investing in. Gymnastics does a far better job of allowing you to avoid incoming arrows. Parry bonuses from Elite Warrior and equipment are still welcome. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2209
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written Monday, December 26 2005 19:32
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i realize that singleton is currently better then it ever was in exile, but i do feel the games have been leaning away from it. i think part of it is basing some things (whether it is experience, or whatever) on average party level, instead of total party level (or maybe some combination of the two) i realize things will be tougher with a singleton, the main reason i liked it was because i didnt have to deal with 3 (or 5 in exile) other wierdos during combat and such ill prolly give another shot this weekend, after what ive been reading about divinely touched nephils.... Posts: 15 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 26 2005 20:17
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Avernum wasn't really worse for singletons, and Geneforge practically demands solo play from Agents. Only A4 makes trying to play with a smaller party more difficult than a smaller party should be. —Alorael, who would suggest selling invulnerabilities to an infinite reseller if any existed in A4 and if money weren't all earmarked for other things anyway. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, December 27 2005 01:47
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Pilgrim’s Progress: How I got from Mertis to the Tower in Five Easy Steps. My singleton is holding his own just fine against all challenges still. I finished the Spiral Crypt no trouble. Well, a little trouble. It’s not even the main quest in the crypt which was so pesky. It was the undead keeper of the mayor’s sash which proved a bit annoying with his Freeze Spell. I’m trying to keep things general enough so they are not specific spoilers, especially since Slarty hasn’t been here yet. It took three tries. I ran in, acided each pylon twice, darted back out and waited for it to die. Finally, when only the keeper was left, I acided him and ran back out around the corner. He followed me and we exchanged blows, the difference being that mine actually hit him. But eventually he hit me with the Freeze Spell effectively and my tank had to sit there and take a few occasional blows until finally he woke up. After that, I made quick work of him. So, even though I haven’t totally cleared out the Honeycomb and need to go back to Athron’s Lair, I thought I’d go down to the Tower Colony and take care of a little business there and earn myself Dispel Barrier finally. This is one confrontation I have been worried about. But, as it turns out, it was also very easy, once I got a strategy down. Basically, hasted and facing the big boy at the end, I darted into line of sight, dumped him with acid, and darted back out of sight. He never moves, and if I wasn’t in sight during his turn, he’d only occasionally summon up some critters. When the critters ran over and got in my way, I’d spend a turn or two removing them, making sure to be out of big boy’s sights at the end of my turn. Instead of using Repel Spirit on him at 6 SP, which did about 40 damage, I just kept dumping acid on his head at 3 SP and an average of around 33 damage per turn. It took a while, but big boy just crumpled eventually. Imagine the shouting when I realized that my reward of Dispel Barrier is granted by way of being given access to....a spellbook. Oops. And....arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh! I totally forgot this factor. This totally botches up the training path I was on. I was just finishing my mage spells and could have now moved back to priest or defensive stats. Except I have no way to actually acquire Dispel Barrier now. Anyone know offhand, how many Arcane Lore it takes to read that book? I could of course use the editor and find out. Right now, I’m a bit too consternated, and wondering what to do. I think I wasted one or two mage spell levels, if I am NOT going to be going to Dispel Barrier. That’s 18 freaking points. This just got a lot less possible, or at least a lot less fun at the moment. Barriers hereafter are largely too strong for piercing crystals, I believe, including the one in the Honeycomb I bumped into already. I can’t remember if there is any barrier I actually need to get through to win the game. Can anyone think of any I am going to be in trouble without being able to dispel? It’s quite possible that there aren’t any critical ones, actually. Mostly they guard spellbooks...and the testing rooms. Maybe the latter are dispellable by crystal, though even they aren’t essential. [ Tuesday, December 27, 2005 01:52: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 12:22
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I am reading this thread, because I think it's pretty interesting. One bit of advice ... you do NOT need dispel barrier or high pick locks to win the game. I think the hardest door you have to unlock to win the game has difficulty 5. Passing doors and barriers gives you better gear and options, but there is always another way. (This is, in part, to prevent Avernum neophytes from gimping themselves but not thinking to get one particular thing.) I don't think you can win the game as a singleton without lowering the difficulty. This doesn't bother me. Balance is a tricky thing as it is. In the end, you have to pick a set of legitimate playstyles, balance to make them reasonable, and hope the borderline behavior works out. The thing that makes a singleton hard is NOT how experience scales. It is the basic way the encounters are designed. I tried to set them up so that several characters need to work together to do whatever. In this sense, I find the problems singletons are having to be reassuring. But I really do hope your singleton finds a way to win. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 13:07
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quote:I disagree. A4 is set up so that there are several roles to be played, but one character could play them as well as four, provided that this one character has all the necessary skills. That is, if a character can be the one that you want the enemies to attack (a role occupied by my meat shield), the one who dishes out most of the damage (a role occupied by my archer and mage/archer), and the one who does the healing and spellcasting (a role occupied by my priest and partly by my mage/archer), then that character will be able to perform just as well as a party. The problem is not, as you say, finding the AP to perform all these tasks; being attacked takes no AP, and my mage did all his spell-casting before the battles began, so one need only balance healing and damage-doing. The problem, as Synergy is finding, is allocating the skill points to make a character capable of performing all three of those roles, a problem exacerbated by the scaling XP, since this character doesn't gain as many levels individually as a four-person party would gain combined. The key, evidently, is to find skills that are effective at low levels, rather than trying to pump one skill up to 15. Of course, the problem is that a singleton needs Arcane Lore and Nature Lore at artificially high levels in order to access everything. But most of those things don't really need to be accessed. Yeah, Synergy, I'd say come back for Dispel Barrier later, if you haven't already decided to do that. For the record, I never used Divine Retribution. [ Thursday, December 29, 2005 13:09: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 13:47
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Kel: I am hard pressed to think of ANY RPG, computerized or otherwise, in which you would expect a loner to gain the same quantity of levels as a group would, in toto. It's an extremely standard part of an RPG that it takes more experience (either more raw points, or harder enemies required for the same number of points) to get from level 2 to 3 than from level 1 to 2. Furthermore -- the fact that experience scales is very tenuously connected BOTH to lack of skill points AND to singleton difficulty. Experience scaled in Exile just the same way, but in Exile singletons were never difficult to run (except in terms of inventory management) -- both because of Silverlocke's potions, AND because the game mechanics made it fairly easy for even a medium level singleton with Bless to breeze through most encounters. [Also, nobody else brought up AP (Jeff just said PCs need to "work together") but it's worth pointing out that being attacked CAN take up AP if you get stunned. Anyone who's played a Guardian in Geneforge (without abusing Parry of course) can attest to the dangers there.] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 15:49
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Hmm. Experience scaled in some way in the Avernum series (I didn't play Exile much), but the first time I noticed it was in GF1, when I found that challenging opponents were suddenly giving me no experience. This continued in A4. This leads me to believe that the drop-off is much sharper now than it used to be, which hurts singletons. (That's not a bad thing, necessarily.) I am not sure that the drop-off is sharper, but I think it is. Anyone have data on this? And I never found that my PCs had to "work together" in any way that would have been challenging for a single character with the same skills, except that I sometimes healed and attacked in the same turn, which would create an AP problem for a singleton. I probably should've said that first in my previous post. [ Thursday, December 29, 2005 15:54: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 19:14
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I've been taking a break from my singleton game. He's still at the Tower Colony, fuming over his inability to do anything with Kelner's Dispel Barrier reward for his recent heroics upstairs. I went back to a save before I gave him his last Mage spell level and bumped Priest up to 8 to get Heal. It's a long way to Divine Retribution...like 8 more levels! So, I probably wasted one Mage Spell level, but I'm not going back that far to undo it. I checked around from an old endgame, and I didn't find a mage who sells Dispel Barrier anywhere, which is what I was pretty sure I remembered was the case. So, I will buy and hold onto all the Piercing Crystals I get my hands on. I seem to remember most of them come from caches later in the game, however. I'd like to at least do all the testing shade locations if I can. As for levelling-up, he's at Level 27, well ahead of where someone hitting the Tower would normally be, so I am coming out ahead of a party of four in individual level. Obviously, I am not four times ahead or even two times ahead of four PC's in level, but I might be 50% ahead at present. This is due mostly to quest rewards, rather than monster kill points. [ Thursday, December 29, 2005 19:18: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, December 29 2005 21:44
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Nobody expects a singleton to be level 40. at the point where a party of four is at level 10. On the other hand, it seems equally wrong that a singleton will be at level 10 or 11 at that point. That's what makes a singleton oppressively difficult. Now I'm curious. I seem to remember having to dispel barriers to win, but now I can't remember where these essential barriers are. Anyone else know? —Alorael, who is quite sure that the reduction of experience gains in Exile and Avernum were never as severe as in Geneforge and A4. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Friday, December 30 2005 09:15
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It's been a while, but don't they have some blocking Rentar-Ihrno's first place? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, December 30 2005 09:37
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No, just a barely-locked door. I think Jeff is correct that there are no obstructing barriers essential to winning the game. My singleton has cleaned out the Honeycomb, and beaten Athron's Familiar, because I really wanted what he was holding. It took three tries, but was really quite easy, when I stopped fussing over the pylons so much and just focused on the big bad boy. Once I took out the gray (inactive) pylon, I just bombarded big boy with acid, slow spells, and repel spirit till he was no more. I also picked up the Oozing Sword from the goo colony nearby. Vlish, I finished THE Ogre battle you apparently keep referring to...the one with the twin mages who like to cast poisoning spells...how come I can't have one of those? It wasn't so bad either, though it took about three tries to pace things out right. The trick was to only have to deal with a few baddies at a time on the way in. For the final confrontation with the chief and his troup, I used a lot of Daze and Acid before finishing them off with some Icy Clouds, Lightning Spray, and some Oozing sword strokes. I ran out of spell energy and had to come back to finish off just the chief. I am starting to not be so dodgeable now, and have started using my all too infrequent skill points to boost Dexterity and Defense. Priest spells will have to wait. I am not as tanklike now as I have been up till this point. I see no reason at the moment why I shouldn't be able to win this singleton game with some patience and persistence, though I do expect it to get significantly harder from this point on. I am still playing on Easy Level. We'll see if I can maintain my tank-like status and get the rest of my priest spells. Divine Fire and Divine Retribution are going to be pretty important, though I could imagine doing without the latter if it comes down to it. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 30 2005 11:14
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It worries me that the later enemies have stronger attacks (they'll hit you a lot more, unless you pump defense loads), but they also take less damage from spells, and without dedicating stat-building I'm not sure how effective those priest spells are going to be for you... -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Friday, December 30 2005 11:39
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"I seem to remember having to dispel barriers to win, but now I can't remember where these essential barriers are. Anyone else know?" If you do remember, let me know so I can remove/alter them. But if you do find a barrier you have to lower to win, I will be surprised. The fight to get Dispel Barrier in the Tower Colony is a tough one, but also skippable (or, at least, muich delayable). So it shouldn't be an issue for singletons winning. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, December 30 2005 13:00
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I really can't remember anywhere near the end where Dispel Barrier is essential. My singleton has made it to the Castle and is taking on odds and ends in the Great Cave. Everything through Camp Samuels is done. I am at Level 30! I was at level 34 at the end of my last game of 4 PC's, as I recall. I am still getting points for kills though, even two digits sometimes. I added up my dodgeability. It's at 60%, but needs to be better. I am getting hit about 2/3 of the time now. Points are going into Dexterity now and then Gymnastics, though the latter is at five for being a nephil. Maybe Defense will be cheaper first, come to think of it. I am about to enter THAT CAVE off the SW sulphur flats. Wish me luck. I'm a bit worried about this one. It will take a lot of strategy and reloads I think. I am beginning to think that with the outlook for getting my tankishness up and wanting more priest spells that Tool Use is also something that needs to be largely foregone in this game. If the worst necessary door is Level 5, then magic alone could open that. Some loot would be missed by traps, and hmm, come to think of it, the route to Craftmaster Strine who makes the only Knowledge Brews in the game is trapped as I recall. I wonder what difficulty those traps are? I stopped my Tool Use at 11 and can bump it to 14 with items when necessary. So far, I have been able to disarm anything and magically I am unlocking doors of at least 22 difficulty already. One strategy for the game might have to be to forego Tool Use entirely too. This would make extras like Demonslayer out of the question, along with numerous other optional bounty, but not getting Demonslayer means not fulfilling two possible quests and that means less XP. Still, the investment to put Tool Use at 11 is way more than that difference plus any others that might get shortchanged due to no thief ability. Those SP might be needed for defensive investment and priest spells instead. We shall see... -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, December 30 2005 13:15
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There is a way to deal with that cave that makes it pretty easy, probably even easier for a singleton than for a full party. EDIT: Does anyone else think it's kind of nice having Jeff around, reading a few threads here and there and posting? You should do this more often. [ Friday, December 30, 2005 13:29: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |