For A5 - Keep it fresh for tanks!
| Author | Topic: For A5 - Keep it fresh for tanks! |
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Apprentice
Member # 8177
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 17:18
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I loved Avernum 4, and finished the game with a singleton Slith Polearm tank. I know a lot of people play Avernum to hack and slash at stuff, and typically do what I did and use all-melee party. A lot of people play Avernum for tactics and strategy, and they typically use magic and ranged characters, because these character offer the most amount of combat choices during a fight. I'd love it if, in Avernum 5, there was offered gameplay that catered to gamers who, like myself, like to get up close and personal with their enemies, but still wish to have a variety of combat choices. So Jeff, how hard would it be, in Avernum 5, to allow characters of a certain melee skill level to sacrifice a couple extra AP points to perform a couple different melee abilities? This could be very simple. An extra couple AP points to prepare your character for a Parry. A 3 AP point melee feint, that makes your next attack deal more damage. Or an 8 AP attack could give a chance of knocking an enemy back a square. An 8 AP area of effect melee attack... There are many ways you could do this. It might take some experimenting, but providing an option for the increased decision-making of a melee character would be something I, as a gamer, would value greatly. Thanks for reading, Shadestorm [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 17:19: Message edited by: Shadestorm ] -------------------- When this girl at the art museum asked me whom I liked better, Monet or Manet, I said, "I like mayonnaise." She just stared at me, so I said it again, louder. Then she left. I guess she went to try to find some mayonnaise for me. Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, February 24 2007 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 17:32
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You are talking about comepletly changing how you fight in Avernum. Most likely, not going to happen. :rolleyes: Edit -post ideas about A5 in the A5, early, early notes thread. [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 17:39: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ] -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8177
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 17:41
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Really? I was just thinking to make the melee combat more like the magic combat: More decisions, more strategy. Perhaps you're right. And thanks for pointing me to the other thread. That "A5 and the Magic System" topic made me think this was okay. Feel free to delete if this is off-limits :/. -------------------- When this girl at the art museum asked me whom I liked better, Monet or Manet, I said, "I like mayonnaise." She just stared at me, so I said it again, louder. Then she left. I guess she went to try to find some mayonnaise for me. Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, February 24 2007 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 18:30
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If Jeff takes some elements from the revised AP system in Geneforge 4, then you will see melee fighting be more useful. Avernum 4 eliminated the player wait command in combat that allowed you to let the monster close so you could melee at the risk of damage. With the new system as long as you have 1 AP you can still attack. This eliminates the I moved too far and don't have 5 AP to attack with anymore. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8177
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 18:45
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Well, sure, I love the GF4 AP system. However, I don't think the melee system needs to be any more useful, just a more varied experience. Something to use your AP on, other than items. What if attacking an enemy while it's facing another direction caused your damage to increase? That might be a worthy outlet of melee fighters extra AP points: try to maneuver around the surroundings into a favorable attack angle both offensively or defensively. Say you have a singleton melee character. You've closed the gap with a high HP enemy. Your game decisions are limited only to continue attacking the enemy, and continue to use potions to sustain the attack, or run away. On the contrary, magic user characters have a range of spells they can choose to use in different circumstances. Ranged characters attempt to keep in a line of sight with their enemies while at the same time avoiding their immediate vicinity. But the melee character experience is clicking the enemy until it's dead. But you know I'm not speaking for all situations in the game, just for the solo melee character gamer... :/ What do I know anyway. [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 18:47: Message edited by: Shadestorm ] -------------------- When this girl at the art museum asked me whom I liked better, Monet or Manet, I said, "I like mayonnaise." She just stared at me, so I said it again, louder. Then she left. I guess she went to try to find some mayonnaise for me. Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, February 24 2007 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:21
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Don't worry, Shadestorm. This is a perfectly acceptable thread. In fact, I remember a similar discussion before. Really, Dikiyoba can only think of adding less damage/greater defense and greater damage/less defense options to the normal attack. The first one would be useful when fighting a horde of weaker opponents that you can easily defeat but that can hit you as well. The second would be useful against enemies that you can almost kill in one hit but not quite. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5576
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:35
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quote:I've been hearing vague things like this about the GF4 combat system, and that this will then be applied to A5. From snippets like this, it sounds like the combat system from A1-BoA. Is that in fact the case? If not, what are the differences? -------------------- Überraschung des Dosenöffners! "On guard, you musty sofa!" Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:49
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The older combat system had 4 AP (5 occasionally with fast on feet trait) and more when hasted. You could move and still cast a spell/attack with 1 AP. To attack you needed 4 AP and spells were 5 AP so you usually needed hasted mode to cast 2 spells but with fast on feet you could sometimes get 2 attacks. A4 switched to 8 AP and made a minimum AP needed to attack/spell. This resulted in numerous complaints about moving too far and loosing a turn. Also you needed to use items first before attacking since the attack would use up the turn. Hasted was a little better for not losing the turn. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5576
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 19:52
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Sorry, I didn't make my question clear, I guess. I'm familiar with how the A4 Ap system differs from the other Avernums, I was wondering how the GF4 system was different. -------------------- Überraschung des Dosenöffners! "On guard, you musty sofa!" Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 20:27
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Under the G4 system, your turn still ends immediately if you attack or cast a spell with less than 10 AP, but unlike the previous Geneforge games (and A4) you don't need at least 5 AP to attack. (You still need at least 3 AP to use an item in combat.) [ Saturday, February 24, 2007 20:28: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, February 24 2007 22:46
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Changing melee attacks would require a whole lot of balance work unless they were very simple changes, and the AI would need more work if they either needed to use these new attacks or respond reasonaby to their existence. —Alorael, who doesn't think it's impossible. It's just unlikely until Jeff starts working on a very new engine. Maybe Nethergate 2.0? The engine still hasn't been specified. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8177
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 01:31
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Well, I definitely wouldn't want anything that would change the gameplay drastically from what it is. So maybe tankers are destined to have the same 'potion, click, click, potion' gameplay. I swear though, if I had at least one other thing to think about during combat than whether or not I had enough potions to sustain my slashing, I'd be ecstatic :) I also always wondered why the decision to end your turn when you attacked, regardless of the AP you had left. I mean, I don't know why you'd attack first and then use your items, but at least you would never accidently attack when you had an extra couple AP to use up. Off topic: How many accounts does Alorael have, anyway? -------------------- When this girl at the art museum asked me whom I liked better, Monet or Manet, I said, "I like mayonnaise." She just stared at me, so I said it again, louder. Then she left. I guess she went to try to find some mayonnaise for me. Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, February 24 2007 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 01:34
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Originally by Shadestorm: quote:Just one, but he changes his name every day. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 01:35
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quote:Only one that we know of (well, he has a secondary account, but never uses it). You'll notice that his member number doesn't change; only his name does. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 08:14
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Add another bar to health and spell energy. Call it "Energy". Make it yellow. It will dictate how often you can use the aforementioned abilities. You will still need a certain amount of APs to execute an ability. A basic melee attack uses up exactly the amount that recharges each turn. Strength and endurance increase the size of the bar. If you have a melee weapon, the Melee Weapons skill will decrease the amount of energy the special attacks, not the basic one, use up. Same for pole weapons. Maybe even throw in a few special arrows if you feel like it. Add "Combat Modes". Offensive, Defensive, and Normal. In Offensive, you will sacrifice a certain percentage of your defense and use it for damage. Vice-versa for Defensive. Maybe throw in a few in-between modes. Jeff will likely never read this post, but it doesn't hurt to try. [ Sunday, February 25, 2007 08:19: Message edited by: Dr. Strange ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 11:40
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quote:This secondary account is news to me. —Alorael, who does not admit to being Aran, being created by Aran, or having created Aran. Or SMoE, for that matter. He'll just continue dropping hints, thank you very much. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 13:07
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quote:Didn't you have a Skribbane Addict account at one point? I could have sworn that was a different account and not just a name change. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 13:17
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I changed my PDN to Skribbane Addict for a few hours years before my daily name changes. It made people upset, and those people included me, so I changed it back promptly. —Alorael, who would look up accounts named Skribbane Addict if the Endeavor were available. It is not, and Google reveals nothing interesting on the subject. [ Sunday, February 25, 2007 13:19: Message edited by: Endemos ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 13:47
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There is a SKRIBANE ADDICT, which Dikiyoba doesn't think looks but like Alorael, but his deviousness knows no bounds, so who knows? Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 13:49
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Back to topic! It's a reasonably good one, so some on! Ideas! -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8177
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 15:37
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Oh, my bad. I didn't know it was possible to just change your name on the fly. Anyways. Dr. Strange, you think that it would be feasible to introduce a completely new ability tree with it's own resource bar to manage? I mean, yeah, that'd be awesome, but that would be a major addition to combat, something that I don't think could be completely balanced the first time it's introduced to the game. Of course, Jeff could see that it worked well enough in WoW. I just hope it wouldn't go the way of having a "100 Energy point 2x attack" or a "200 Energy point 4x attack" like WoW does. It needs to add to the strategy of melee combat, not just the effeciency of it. I'd enjoy combat amplifiers depending on elevation and angle of attack. For example, getting a bonus for attacking from up higher, or attacking when an enemy's back is turned. That way, you could use those extra 3 AP points to maneuver into an advantageous position before attacking. [ Sunday, February 25, 2007 15:40: Message edited by: Shadestorm ] -------------------- When this girl at the art museum asked me whom I liked better, Monet or Manet, I said, "I like mayonnaise." She just stared at me, so I said it again, louder. Then she left. I guess she went to try to find some mayonnaise for me. Posts: 12 | Registered: Saturday, February 24 2007 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, February 26 2007 13:19
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Yes, Tactics Online has different armor levels for each side. It would be a very good idea, and Dexterity could increase the armor you have when attacked from behind. And you could have increased hit chances. It would also provide a nice way of keeping the AP special attacks balanced. I mean, if The Doctor uses his 8 AP doom-attack, he might do better damage, but this enemy has excellent Parrying, so he'll step around back. There shouldn't be an ability tree, so to speak. It seems too arbitrary and not very original. The Doctor would prefer if the skills had to be bought from trainers, like spells. They wouldn't be nearly as numerous, of course, maybe only six to ten, most of them with a status effect and little to no damage. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |