Crossbows

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Author	Topic: Crossbows
D Pliss BANNED Member # 6762	written Thursday, October 19 2006 18:18 Profile #0 Has anyone else missed crossbows in A4. Sadly I just noticed my third time trying {not beating} the game and currently in mertis. Or is a crossbow a empire weapon. {though it's on A1 and A2} or did jeff just not want to make sweet graphics for it. like ALL other A4 items. Main reason I play actually. to stare at the demonslayer all day. Good use of time! :rolleyes: -------------------- Don't be a noob, PLAY RUNESCAPE -SO i can pwn you-add me or if your smart -Save yourself and let them suffer Posts: 123 \| Registered: Friday, February 3 2006 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Friday, October 20 2006 06:47 Profile Homepage #1 Yes, I too missed crossbows. Of course, Longbows were a good replacement, as was the Heartstriker Bow. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, October 20 2006 08:24 Profile Homepage #2 Without arrows and bolts, ranged weapons that aren't themselves ammunition are all interchangeable. There wouldn't be a difference between bows and crossbows anyway, except possibly in AP, so it doesn't matter. —Alorael, who wonders if luxury products made from exotic cavewood from Avernum are strong sellers among the Empire's rich and bored. Sure, cavewood bows might be bad for serious use, but they make good conversation pieces, and you can always claim that you took it from the body of the Worm who killed your father. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Friday, October 20 2006 13:34 Profile Homepage #3 I've always wondered if a well-made cavewood bow can best a surface bow. I think that Craftmaster Shrine could assemble something pretty impressive. Yeah... crossbows were fun. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Friday, October 20 2006 17:13 Profile #4 Surface bows were always better than cavewood bows. That's why the first thing you do when you encounter Empire archers is kill them for their weapon. I think crossbows disappeared to simplify the weapon system. Posts: 4643 \| Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Garrison Agent Member # 2820	written Friday, October 20 2006 19:16 Profile #5 Crossbows were always meant to be superior to a bow of comparable quality. Bows are plenty strong enough already, so crossbows would need a major handicap in order to keep them balanced in gameplay. Either that or the bows would have to be replaced with identical crossbows to preserve continuity. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 \| Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Friday, October 20 2006 19:19 Profile Homepage #6 Crossbows aren't necessarily superior, they are just used in a different way, generally faster and easier in combat. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, October 20 2006 22:23 Profile Homepage #7 quote: Originally written by Glory of Glorycles: Crossbows aren't necessarily superior, they are just used in a different way, generally faster and easier in combat. He meant in Avernum, not in real life. Crossbows always do more damage than comparable bows in Avernum, so they're superior in that sense. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, October 20 2006 22:25 Profile Homepage #8 Crossbows were originally inferior. They had less range, less power, and less accuracy than a longbow in the hands of a skilled archer, and after the first shot is fired a crossbow has a much longer reload time. The advantage is that crossbows are point and shoot weapons. Any idiot can kill someone with one, which is probably why the Church feared idiots with crossbows. —Alorael, who isn't really sure when the hand crossbow overtook the longbow in power or even if the distinction was useful. Longbows could punch through armor, and dead is dead no matter how impressive the hole is. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Saturday, October 21 2006 04:44 Profile Homepage #9 Interesting topic. Wikipedia says: "In the later years of the crossbow it had enough kinetic energy to penetrate any chainmail and most plate armor hit squarely: some reached a draw force of nearly 350 lbf (1600 N), compared to the 60-180lbf (300-900 N) draw force for a longbow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better and lessen the reaction time to fire compared to a bowman. Because archers could not keep their powerful bows pulled for long periods of time they aimed by pulling their bows a bit to put the bow in a strung stance, and they pulled the bow to the full pull length just right before they wanted to release the arrow." "They almost completely superseded hand bows in many European armies in the twelfth century for a number of reasons. Although an expertly handled longbow had greater range, equal accuracy and faster rate of fire than an average crossbow, the value of the crossbow came in its simplicity: it could be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice. The invention of pushlever and ratchet drawing mechanisms enabled the use of crossbows on horseback." And this sounds neat: "Crossbowmen among the Flemish citizens in the army of Richard Lionheart, and others, had two servants, two crossbows and a pavise shield to protect the men. One of the servants had the task of reloading the weapons, while the second subordinate would carry and hold the pavise (the archer himself also wore protective armor). Such a three-man team could fire 8 shots per minute, compared to a single crossbowman's 3 shots per minute." This is also cool: Cho-Ko-Nu -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Saturday, October 21 2006 08:31 Profile Homepage #10 A4 Bows are already effectively all Adlerauge (minus the insane damage) with their infinite ammo. Which is in line with the only way to make it challenging being basically to play it Creator-style, with a singleton in Torment. --- Given that, I guess adding crossbows would be overkill, quite literally. [ Saturday, October 21, 2006 08:46: Message edited by: Robert Daniel Oliver ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Saturday, October 21 2006 09:03 Profile Homepage #11 quote: Originally written by Glory of Glorycles: "In the later years of the crossbow it had enough kinetic energy to penetrate any chainmail and most plate armor hit squarely..." One thing of note is that a 5-year-old with a toothpick could pierce chainmail. It wasn't nearly as durable as most people think. And that pretty much says all I have to say on this topic. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Saturday, October 21 2006 09:40 Profile Homepage #12 A toothpick can penetrate chainmail easily because it slips through the holes. A sword, I suppose, can pierce chainmail by having a lot of force behind it. I imagine that mail really worked best at deflecting slashes and stopping glancing blows. —Alorael, who still thinks that smashing holes in plate armor was a big deal. Archers were the tank killers of pre-firearm warfare. They were pretty cheap, too. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Garrison Agent Member # 2820	written Saturday, October 21 2006 18:51 Profile #13 Don't diss chainmail because you think it was ineffective. Diss it because it was heavy and expensive. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 \| Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Saturday, October 21 2006 19:04 Profile Homepage #14 Why can't it be because it was expensive, heavy, AND ineffective? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Sunday, October 22 2006 08:33 Profile Homepage #15 Where's TM when you need him? Alas! —Alorael, who maybe should be worried about why certain TM-only comments sprang immediately to mind. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Garrison Agent Member # 2820	written Sunday, October 22 2006 08:46 Profile #16 What evidence do you have that it was that ineffective? Of course it could not withstand a full on stab, but it could stop all glancing blows and slashes. Also, could a five-year-old pierce chainmail with a knife? I don't have any direct evidence for that, but I'd seriously doubt it considering that I've taken a few token stabs at modern renditions of chainmail. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 \| Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Sunday, October 22 2006 08:47 Profile Homepage #17 Why would you need TM here? :confused: EDIT: A modern rendition of what chainmail used to be like is not the same as a real suit of old-fashioned chainmail. It could stand up to swords fairly well. But if someone came at you with a spear, bow, or crossbow, you wouldn't last long. [ Sunday, October 22, 2006 08:51: Message edited by: Ghouloca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Sunday, October 22 2006 09:14 Profile Homepage #18 quote: Originally written by Ghouloca: Why would you need TM here? :confused: As Alorael said, sometimes you get these TM-like comments into your head. Somebody has to actually say them, or the pressure eventually builds up and we all explode. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Amyth Shaper Member # 7472	written Sunday, October 22 2006 09:25 Profile Homepage #19 quote: Originally written by Ephesos: quote: Originally written by Ghouloca: Why would you need TM here? :confused: *As Alorael said, sometimes you get these TM-like comments into your head. Somebody* has to actually say them, or the pressure eventually builds up and we all explode. Tell me when that is about to happen, so I can place myself behind something nice and sturdy. :) -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 \| Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00**
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Sunday, October 22 2006 09:38 Profile Homepage #20 What good will that do? Ephesos said "we all explode." That means you too, Nioca. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Sunday, October 22 2006 11:51 Profile Homepage #21 quote: Originally written by Ghouloca: Why can't it be because it was expensive, heavy, AND ineffective? What would TM say? —Alorael, who is not terribly familiar with the mechanics of chainmail. He'd like to think that those wearing it would have avoided it if it were as ineffective as you think. It certainly wasn't comfortable enough for casual wear! Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
John S Agent Member # 5814	written Sunday, October 22 2006 15:01 Profile #22 quote: Originally written by Remember the Alorael: quote: Originally written by Ghouloca: Why can't it be because it was expensive, heavy, AND ineffective? What would TM say? Just for posterity: Alorael's mother is expensive, heavy, and ineffective. God forbid there should be a single generation that doesn't know who TM is, because they'll be blindsided. But just in case... -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon Well, I'm at least pretty Posts: 1115 \| Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Delicious Vlish His Mighty Tentacle Member # 627	written Sunday, October 22 2006 15:29 Profile #23 I've worn chainmail made from fireplace mesh. Chainmail over padded leather was actually good armor. Better than plate in some ways, more mobility. People seem to forget that there was other inventions that made plate obsolete, other than crossbows and guns. Reinforced maces. Lucern hammers. Pollaxes. Footman's hammer with pick and point. The handle doubled as a crowbar, for peeling a knight out of his armor, and on top of the hammer head was a good foot long spike for stabbing after you softened him up a bit. Flanged maces with armor piercing flanges. War bars. (A crude length of iron with a knob at one end, and a crow bar hook at the other. A rather crude club, but was highly effective in the crusades.) All of these made plate mail worthless, or worse, a liability. A crushing blow with a heavy hammer would crimp and deform even the best made gothic plates. A man could be trained to render a knight completely helpless in a few blows. Even heavy shields did nothing to stop furious hammer blows, pavices, round shields, all would crumple and your arm would break. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Enraged Slith Agent Member # 27	written Sunday, October 22 2006 18:22 Profile #24 quote: People seem to forget that there was other inventions that made plate obsolete, other than crossbows and guns. Let's not forget how many knights were killed by tripping and falling facefirst into seemingly innocent puddles of water. Armor was pretty damn heavy. Posts: 1233 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00