Agent vs. Guardian
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 11:41
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I was looking at the initial stats for the different classes this morning, and realized that... well, there are some imbalances. This affects the Shaper very little, since he has more of a different play style, and shaping is less of a "splash color" skill than magic or melee for the Guardian and Agent. The Guardian and Agent are surprisingly interchangeable, though, so I'm going to compare them here. Basically, there are three sorts of stats differences among the classes. 1. HP, Spell Energy, and Essence - conveniently, G and A have equal essence. A has a lot more spell energy, G has a little more HP. Negligible differences unless you rely on battle magic, but the G would never do that anyway. 2. Cost in skill points to increase skills - in G1, this was huge: it would always cost A twice as much as G to increase Quick Action, for example, even when the rate of actual skill increased declined at 10 or 20 points. In G2 and G3, when the rate of increase declines (because you have to spend more points to increase the ability), the advantage of the superior class also decreases. So after the first few times you increase a skill, the advantage of the class that's "strong" in that skill drops to a fairly constant level. For strong vs. normal, this is very little. Thus, a G who puts any number of points into Missile Weapons will always have either 1 or 2 more levels in the skill than an A who puts the same number of points in. (I did the math out.) On the other hand, an A putting points into battle magic will always have earned (not counting base points in the skill) 4 or 5 levels more than the G (this stabilizes once you've put about 10 skill points into the skill). 3. Initial "bonus" points. These are often more significant, since they don't make further points cost extra, and some skills have a lot of them. G and A - AT A GLANCE Taking both #2 and #3 into account, if a G and an A both train equally in the same useful combat skills, one will have an advantage: Strength - Guardian +1 Dexterity - Agent +2 Melee Weapons - Guardian + 2-3 Missile Weapons - Guardian + 1-2 Quick Action - Guardian + 4-5 Parry - Guardian + 5-6 Battle, Mental Magic - Agent + 6-7 Blessing Magic - Agent + 5-6 Spellcraft - Agent + 2-3 Additionally, as mentioned earlier, the Agent gets better Spell Energy while the Guardian has an HP advantage. We already knew the G isn't a real magic-user. But what does this mean for melee and missile attacks? MISSILE WEAPONS: With profuse apologies to Delicious Vlish, it looks like Agents are better missile attackers. Those 2 bonus points of dexterity are a better deal than 1-2 levels of missile weapon skill, especially considering that dex also lets you dodge attacks. And if you focus on missile attacks, most of the other G bonuses aren't very useful. Then it's a question of whether you'd rather have minor shaping ability or better bless/haste/daze support. I know my preference :) ...of course, this just goes to show the weakness of missiles, since Agents can pump battle magic/spellcraft just as effectively as missile weapons/dex. MELEE WEAPONS: The G gets some very nice bonuses here. However, there is one big reason to still consider the A as a melee attacker: Daze. It will take the G a whopping 18 skill points just to get to 4 levels of mental magic! Keeping daze strong enough to be really viable is thus not a great option for the G. For the A, it's no problem at all, and the A will have little problem getting skills like QA to respectable levels, especially with equipment bonuses. Melee combat, which often doesn't allow you the corner-ducking, door-shuffling tactics favored by Tormented agents, is MUCH less dangerous if you keep your enemies dazed. Once again, it may be simpler to just run a battle magic agent, since spellcraft does double duty; melee has perks, though. Regeneration is great, and less attack spells means you have more energy and essence to use on daze. Any thoughts? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4506
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 11:50
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Agent is better ofcourse. The only thing Agent is lacking is a decent picture. A girl's pic gets on my nerves! - Archmagi Micael -------------------- "You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage -------------------- My Scenarios: Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong? -------------------- Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website). -------------------- MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :) Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 11:58
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quote:fyt I agree - the guardian is seriously nerfed compared with the agent in GF3. The reduction in the effectiveness of parry, combined with the incredible usefulness of daze has a lot to do with this, I think. [ Wednesday, May 18, 2005 12:07: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 12:13
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I do not disagree and no apologies needed. The Agent is insanely overpowered. I have stated this time and time again. The Missile Guardian, while fun for role playing, is but a hobbled variant, rather than focused power. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 13:36
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I dont know, you do seem to forget that the guardian can shape a LOT better than the agent. I just happen to notice that you arent taking the agents biggest weakness into account. The guardian can use all his essence on creations and the skill costs less, and the agent usually uses her essence on magic. Your other arguments are logical though. -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 13:50
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The Agent never has, and will never need creations. She is a walking talking neutron bomb. Any points spent in shaping only hurt the Agent and detract from her power potential. Infact, once you know how to drive an Agent, know how to build her properly, and know what you are doing, it's hard to hold back and the game becomes entirely to easy, even on Torment. Walk into a room and just vapourise everything in a turn or three. Even the Monastary Caves are a complete cakewalk. The Agent is now the star character. Notice that the picture in the story panels is no longer a Shaper but a female Agent? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5523
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 17:05
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I don't care about power, the agent looks way cooler then the guardian. -------------------- “Medicine, Law, Business, Engineering - These are noble pursuits and necessary to sustain life. But Poetry, Beauty, Romance, Love-These are what we alive stay for.” Posts: 150 | Registered: Sunday, February 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 22:17
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The lack of male agents is a little funny. Beyond the pic, I think every single NPC agent in the games has been female. Shaping isn't a weakness of the agent, it just isn't a strength. But there's no point in having shaping be a primary offense for either A or G, since shaping will be many times more effective in the hands of a Shaper. Thus it's really only worth considering shaping as a support skill here, and as a support skill it's frankly less useful than daze is. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 22:56
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Or as an added challenge you can try to keep a pumped-up Ornk alive through the Monastery Caves ... -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 01:45
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Gaurdians have been historicly less effective, because of the fact they are supposed to be in the front lines, rather than be able to avoid damage. Thats what parry used to be for, now thats no more. -------------------- Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping? A: The sound of someone getting smacked upside the head. Duct tape is like the force. It has a good side and a dark side and it binds the universe together. Don't worry Alorael, custom titles are overrated. Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4404
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 05:57
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Very interesting. I was just starting to get far with a Missle Guardian after getting far as a pure spells Agent. Now I think im gonna start over as a Missle Agent, heh. -------------------- People says Microsoft paid 14 million dollars for using the Rolling Stones song "Start me up" in their commercials. This is wrong. Microsoft paid 14 million dollars only for a part of the song. For instance, they didn't use the line "You'll make a grown man cry". Posts: 42 | Registered: Wednesday, May 19 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 09:59
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Guardians aren't nearly as bad as they've been made out to be; just don't put so much into Parry to start with, and I think you'll be fine. Parry is nowhere near the gamebreaker it was in G2, but it isn't actually such a bad skill; I may even start putting more points into it soon. It just isn't at all worth sacrificing your other initial abilities in order to start the game with huge Parry. I seem to have lived down that initial error at last, and I'm now rolling comfortably through Dhonal's Isle, after some very rough patches on Harmony. My melee attack is effective enough that the wands and crystals are piling up in Fort Wilton. I'm even starting to get some noticeable payoff from my high Parry skill -- somehow it has crept up to 22%, at least against clawbugs. I'm pretty sure now that the more traditional melee Guardian is a fine alternative to Delicious Vlish's 'Hunter' version. His basic point that missiles and wands are important for Guardians in G3 certainly remains true, though: you can't afford to ignore Missile Weapons, and you will want to use missiles quite frequently, as any kind of Guardian. Dexterity may even be worthy of attention for a change (though I'm not sure I could get it high enough to start seeing enemies miss me a lot, without trashing my currently effective melee balance). [ Thursday, May 19, 2005 16:15: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 13:17
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No one seems to see that a guardian can benefit from having the shaping skills. Yes, an agent cant benefit from shaping, but a guardian can. Personally, i think that some people arent playing the guardian right and so, cannot obtain thier maximum benefit. -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 13:30
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A 'He' am I. Heh. Guardians can shape. Yes. No doubting that. That's not the problem. With a Guardian or a Shaper hiding behind their army, they go into a room and battle takes place. An Agent goes into the same room and stuff DIES! A Guardian is at best, an armed escort for his creations. He may lead his creations into battle and might actually kill stuff... But for the most part, he still kills things one at a time. And while he is killing something, something else is busy trying to kill him. And that is the problem. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 14:03
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But a guardian with enough AP's will maybe kill three creatures in one round. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 14:26
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But an Agent with those same APs will kill ALL creatures in one round. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 14:58
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Shaping skills are useful to both Guardians and Agents because of Healing Skill. Ultimately, both A and G will buy this skill- so Guardians will either get the added bonus of Augmentation (which changes the HP bonus from "noticeable" to "extreme"), or they'll get another extra 2-10 skill points on the A. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 16:13
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Any Guardian or Agent who puts skill points into Healing Craft is nuts. There are something like five different spellbooks/quest rewards/etc that increase Healing Craft in G3. Agents, additionally, will have more than enough spell power for healing thanks to Spellcraft. You're right, though, that Augmentation and Essence Armor are more effective for the G. Actually, that's a good point. High level Gs can get ridiculous HP reserves. On Torment that really doesn't tip the scales so much, but it's still something in their favor. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 17:04
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My apologies to DV for the gender error, which I have amended in my last post. I thought I remembered an old exchange in the Geneforge forum, before G2 came out, in which one member referred to herself as the 'rogue creation (daughter)' of another, and (as I recalled) mentioned the other as her mother. (Since I have a small daughter myself now, the 'rogue creation' line kind of stuck with me.) I further had the impression that DV was one of these people; obviously I was wrong. It's the cosmic rays, they've had too long to work on my DNA. At the end of the day I'll vote for the Agent as the most overpowered class every time. At least until the end of the day, though, I'd like to argue the other side, because I don't think the difference is really as big as it seems. Agents kill enemies quickly, and never get a scratch themselves. (That's because if they get hit at all they die, and you reload; but if you have the patience to play cautiously, there's no reason to get hit.) Guardians do take longer to hack the enemy down, and take a lot of damage in the process. But is this really a sound measure of relative power? The Guardian gets the job done every bit as much as the Agent does, and (assuming sound tactics all round) the final outcome isn't any more uncertain. Guardians are made to take a lot of damage: they've got the Health, so they may as well use it. Agents really only have (and only need) one tactic, which consists of a triple nested loop: 1) cast Speed and enter combat mode, 2) advance to contact, 3) blast and retreat. Just repeat each level of loop until victory. G3 has ramped up the resistances of monsters to different damage types, so Agents do have to figure out which blast to cast on which enemies. But that's it. (And if that much thought is too much, just go with Searer, or even Firebolt, and the worst you'll be is victorious a bit slower than you could have been.) Guardians take more thought -- and I'm not even talking about Guardians that make creations. Constant War Blessing and Protection are algorithmic, but other than that you're constantly weighing whether to close to melee, retreat to re-buff, flip a crystal, pop a pod, switch your sword for a wand, heal Alwan, or try a Daze (at least in the early game). Your reconnaissance really matters, because you have to figure out how to avoid getting swarmed. You're having to decide in each zone whether this one is worth burning off a couple of potions to get Essence Armor, or enough Essence for an Augmentation or two, or a short burst of Speed when it counts. And you're even having to decide, back in town, what gear to carry -- you're strong enough that you have a lot of luggage to choose, and you actually need stuff, so you have to choose carefully. Once again, though, does this really mean Guardians are weaker? In their more complicated way, they get the job done just as well. They are, I'm beginning to think, more fun to play. Or maybe they're good to play on your third time through, as I am now, when you already know the plot and the major item locations, and need some more challenge. I'm really getting to like the G3 Guardians, and I don't want to hear them dissed too bad! What I haven't yet gotten to work is the Guardian shaping. My creations are always at negative pressure. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 17:25
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Agents are best at sheer mindless killing. Guardians perform well for roleplaying. Playing my Hunter Guardian was thrilling, and as I mentioned, worth the 25 bucks to play the game. There was a giddy sense of anticipation, fear, sweaty palms, nervous twitching, and a great deal of concern for my own well being as I neared the endgame. While I love playing an Agent... The Guardian forced me to get my game on. I couldn't just walk into a room and nuke it. I had to walk into a room and know what to shoot first. I had all the emotional highs and lows that come with the thrilling feeling of the hunt. Some times I killed my prey quick and easy. Other times, things hunted me. While I can nuke the game with an Agent, playing by my wits was a novel and wonderful experience. I had never quite had an experience quite like that before. Every gem, every mined crystal, every monster giblet that fell, I had to use anything and everything to survive. And at no time was it ever a sure win. Making my own weapons, crafting my ammo, and scavenging and scrounging everything I needed made it a new game... a GOOD game. There is nothing more pleasureable than a solid tactical advance that ends in victory. The Shaper allows me to be lazy. The Agent allows me to play. The Guardian makes me earn my victories, and in this, there is great satisfaction. Nothing, and I mean nothing beats that shaking sweaty handed feeling in the Monastary caves when the scrolling texts implies that more monsters are on their way to EAT YOU. Low on ammo, clinching your batons, balls to the wall do or die come get some kind of fun. Weeeeeee! -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 18:02
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quote:Well, the exchange did take place. But the mother was Kyna and the daughter was Faizah. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 18:46
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I thought Faizah was the daughter! I have to apologize to Kyna too, if she's still around, for confusing her and DV. I think 'rogue creation' not infrequently when my three-year-old daughter runs amok ... [ Friday, May 20, 2005 13:55: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, May 20 2005 14:06
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The Reviving Crystal is really nice on a weapon, especially when you have 10 or more AP. It cuts right down on all those pesky little healings you have to do. As an experiment I also put a Reviving Crystal on my Crystalline Shroud, knowing I'd be replacing it before too long with the Emerald Chestguard anyway. No discernible effect from it so far. Steel spines are also getting quite good; I have two on now, but I'll be adding more. Somehow Parry seems to be kicking in now; it appears to affect some monsters more than others. Anyway, just hitting Gull at level 30, with Alwan my only companion since Harmony, and everything is fine. Having Missile Weapons on 10 seems to be plenty: one shot from a Jewelled Wand slew all six ghost/specter things in Phasia's metalworks. A couple of Swarm Crystals took the heat of very nicely when a crew of Servile Defenders were standing off and shooting at me as I duked it out with three Battle Alphas. A Madness Gem charmed and dazed ALL the servile cultists in that first cultist area on Gull. But I'm definitely a melee Guardian, and it's working out fine so far. Alwan is only occasionally handy, to finish something off. A lot of the time I just send him to stand in a safe corner, because he is much more fragile than me even though his Endurance is maxed out. Essentially I am paying an XP tax to be able to read Alwan's dialog lines. [ Sunday, May 22, 2005 04:46: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |