Why were these game decisions made?
| Author | Topic: Why were these game decisions made? |
|---|---|
|
Warrior
Member # 8338
|
written Thursday, March 22 2007 22:11
Profile
Even though Geneforge (Geneforge 3 that I'm playing now, to be specific) has some unique sides to it I can't help but compare it to Baulder's Gate when I play through it. As such I am baffled by some of the design choices made in GF3. Particularly frustrating (and, in my opinion, plain dumb) is the Flask/Spore issue. Namely, you can use Flasks only on yourselves and have to scrap together spores for your teammates. What gives? What's logically preventing me from using a flask on a teammate or giving it to them to drink? Oh yeah that's right... ...the fact that I'm the ONLY character with an inventory. While I understand the added strategy aspect this brings the game (especially since there are no bags you can use) I am severly upset that I act as a pack mule (sweating under pounds and pounds of burden) as my companions stroll through the countryside. An ugly picture that leaves me confused! On this topic the equipment can only be changed for the PC leaving your two human companions (I've yet to hear of any more that can join you as actual party emmbers) as nothing but glorified summons whose stats you can increase. Ok, I understand, I guess I can deal with that but... Edit: This reminds me - there are eight party slots and in most adventure games all these slots are filled by the end of the game with new allies/pets/summons. In GF, unless I'm playing a shaper, I can expect to solo most of the game (especially as an agent). This seems like an incredible waste to me! ...what's up with the lifeless dialogue of these characters? Alright, I understand they represent two sides of the "debate"/"moral quandary" of the game. That's cool. Some of Greta's speeches are actually quite well written. However the two characters focus so much on the "hate rebel"/"help rebel" aspect that they come across as flat! Two dimensional! (both literally and figuratively!!) This is quite a turn off when compared to the intricate relationship in Baulder's Gate. Greta is the worst since there's no relationship between her and the PC - no sexual tension no nothing! I swear, I will violate her with an Acid Baton if she keeps preaching to me! Finally I am confused and befuddled by the abundance of women in the game. 95% of the guards I've spoken to are identified as women. Strangely some are referred to as women in one dialogue and then as men in the next. Is this some crazy bout of politicall corectness on the creator's part or something else that I'm missing? Aynway, apologies for the rant, just wanted to get some things off my chest. GF is a great game that I hope to finish but it can be quite frustrating at times. (No dedicated shortcut list? No way to remap keys? WTF!?!?!?!?!) Hope GF4 is better as I fear some players may be turned off the series due to (what I feel are) some clumsy design decisions. Oh, and allow me to pre-empt any "don't like it don't play it"/"go back to Baulder's Gate then"/"how dare you criticise Geneforge" people. As I said, I like the game but find it frustrating flawed at times. PCG was spot on when they nailed GF as a diamond in the rough. Edit Edit: Final gripe - what's up with what feels like a total lack of community support for the game? I realize it's a smallc ommunity and Geneforge 3 is an "old" game but there's only one attempt at a walkthrough online and finding relevant threads on this forum is worse than looking for a needle in a haystack. Makes me wonder what the 1,000+ threads were all about :rolleyes: [ Thursday, March 22, 2007 22:20: Message edited by: Eugi ] Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Thursday, March 22 2007 23:25
Profile
Homepage
quote:Comparisons are odious, you know. Baldur's Gate was made by a team of dozens of programmers, designers and artists. Spiderweb Software is basically one guy and his wife. quote:As a general rule, expecting game mechanics to make any kind of sense is expecting too much. quote:Geneforge 4 at least improves the "pack mule" aspect somewhat, as you're no longer slowed down just by carrying a lot of items. quote:If you could get a full party without making creations, there wouldn't be much point to being a Shaper, now would there? quote:Your point about Alwan and Greta having nothing to talk about besides their attitude to the rebellion is something that a lot of other people here have criticised as well. Regarding a relationship between Greta and the PC, though, I should mention that Jeff Vogel doesn't believe in characterising the player character; his philosophy is that the PC belongs to the player, and the game designer doesn't have a right to say what kind of person the PC is. quote:What's your point, exactly? You'd rather the game had fewer women? Why does it matter? The sad thing about the society we live in is that if 95% of the characters you met had been men, you probably wouldn't even have noticed the lack of women. quote:Geneforge 3 is widely considered the worst in the series, so if it's the first GF game you've tried, you might just want to try another one instead. quote:Baldur's Gate sold millions of copies; I don't have sales figures for SW's games, but I imagine they're closer to tens of thousands. With a player base only 1% the size of BG's, it's hardly surprising that there are fewer people around who can give you gameplay advice -- and besides, isn't one good walkthrough enough? [ Thursday, March 22, 2007 23:30: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Thursday, March 22 2007 23:43
Profile
Thuryl forgot to mention that since the forum is run using UBB.dinosaur, it effectively has no search function. There were quite a few G3 threads and debates in the day, (April 05??) but since the merger they have dwindled. You could always change preferences to list all old threads, rather than those from the past 10 days, and then skip back in time to read more. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 08:34
Profile
Homepage
It seems a lot of your problems come from starting the series in the middle, rather than from the beginning. This gives you a mistaken impression of the game design. Try playing Geneforge 1 instead and you'll see that most of your comparisons with BG don't apply, because there is no party. The main idea of Geneforge is that you are playing a single character, who creates creatures to fight for him. Instead of a BG-style party of humanoids, there is just a group of created creatures that are no more than pets to your character. This answers most of your questions about game design: you can't use pods on creations, because that would be about as effective as trying to forse-feed your dog some medicines, while he is chasing a cat. You can't really interact with your creations, because even when I try talking to my dog the only thing he does is wag his tail. :) And so on. Geneforge 3 breaks this pattern by introducing human companions that you can interact with. As Thuryl said, Jeff is just 1 man, instead of a huge company that made BG, so there is very little character interaction he can script in. As for level of support, BG sold several hundred times more copies than any of Spidweb games. There are one or two exellent walkthroughs for each Spidweb game. If there are fewer than several hundred exellent walkthroughs for each BG game, BG community has less walkthrough writers as proportion of the population. :P PS And the search function seems to be broken, so just ask any questions you have and you'll get plenty of replies. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 11:44
Profile
The scripts for all G games are un-coded and can be modded by a total amature so it really isent hard to change the dialog to something you prefer or even alter the reations to it. I agree, you should have a pack-horse chart like an Alpha who can lug around your baggage. But why stop at that? I wouldn't go as far as drakons but I really would like something to ride instead of walking EVERYWERE, even a horse would be good enough for me though the prospect of riding a Glakk or Kasyyk (I can't spell there) is rather disirable. -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Never trust a man who can say "Pickles" with a manic gleam in his eye. Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 8338
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 11:44
Profile
quote:On the one hand I agree. I'm glad that Geneforge (and other games that I'm looking forward to trying) exist and I do enjoy my time with them so far. On the other hand, allow me to flip that argument on you by reminding you of the events on the second island in GF3 where the Lankin et al whined that Diwaniya did not do enough to fulfill his part of the social contract despite the player seeing first hand how stretched Diwaniya really is. Same applies here. Regrettably there are some situations where your best is simply not enough. quote:I understand. I am not trying to imply that I expect hyper-realism from RPGs but it's frustrating to be banging your head against conventions not found in many other games and that seem to exist with no attempt at an explanation. quote:You mean the PC is no longer "encumbered" by going over his weight limit in a fight? Overall, after re-reading what I wrote I'd say that I don't mind this decision per say. The other characters (Alwan/Greta) not having an inventory (in my opinion) detracts from their "humanity" but being so limited does force me to make strategic decisions in regards to my stats and how I travel. quote:You make an excellent point. Checking the screenshots for the other GF games I see a similar GUI design (character slots) in play. I do wish this was changed somewhat so as to not raise player's expectations of having a full eight-person team whether or not they play a shaper though :( quote:Ok, fair enough. In that case I am surprised that Jeff does not, at least, leave that option on the table. Meaning, having the NPC approach (or giving the PC the option to approach) the other party member and leaving the outcome of those interactions in the player's hands. I feel that as long as the player is given a choice (ala whether the PC wants to help the Shapers or the Rebels) Jeff does not break his principle. quote:My point had nothing to do with men and women as a sex per say. I am surprised and somewhat agitated by the fact that everywhere I turn there seem to be women to the point of abnormality. Unless the GF society (based, as I see it, in part, on the Middle Ages) is radically different from ours I see no logical explanation for so many female guards! To be more specific I am befuddled only by the female guard captains I speak with (not Latila or anyone else). Anyway, I'm nitpicking. If this trend persists I will simply go and edit the conversation scripts for the game :P quote:I am somewhat apprehensive when it comes to trying the older games in the series because if GF is so open ended (when it comes to player choices) having only two factions and has so little fan-base support (it seems) I have no idea what I'd do when faced with three or four competing factions in GF1 or GF2. :o quote:Not when it s...uc..ksssss.... :( Zevis and Spent Salmon - Thank you for pointing out the problems with the Search function. It'll suck having to manually read the threads (since most of them have really lame titles like "NEED HELP PLZZ") but hopefully google will help me out :P Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 21:46
Profile
Since graphics are a major time user in creating, you see a lot of generic guards that are all the same sex. Go download an Exile 1 demo and try talking to the guards in a town. Jeff takes shortcuts with what he considers to be unimportant. You have to understand that these games are based upon the older style games from the 1980s. Plot and atmosphere is more important than graphics and what you see in larger company games where they have more people to handle details. Jeff spends a lot of time trying to satisfy his customer base. Most of the old Geneforge 3 players are now over in Geneforge 4. They still pop in to answer questions, but the major debates have moved to include the new information from that game. Once a new game appears, the older ones have few people discussing them. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 5360
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 22:03
Profile
As to the gender switching from time to time, those are just typos. You can't expect Jeff to remember everything. Well, you can, but it won't get you anywhere. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Friday, March 23 2007 22:26
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Eugi: quote:The game plays out basically the same no matter what. You explore and do whatever quests you're given. Just pick a faction (it's pretty obvious what they believe and one isn't better than the others, so if personal feelings don't help, flip a coin or something) and run with it. In G1, you don't even have to debate about canister use vs. no canister use. And there are still enough people around to answer most questions. Between the hintbook, the walkthrough, and the forum, you should have all the information you ever need. Originally by Randomizer: quote:I notice that. But I can't think of any other time gender has been horribly unbalanced (with the exception of Agents, I suppose). Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 13:44
Profile
What exactly is wrong with the G3 FAQ? I have no proprietary interest in it. It's just that I've used it, and I think it's fine. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
|
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 14:05
Profile
Homepage
It does have some inaccuracies when it talks about what the statistics do and other technical aspects of the game engine, but it has far fewer than anything else out there, including the little blurbs that display in Geneforge 3 itself. But the FAQ is generally excellent. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
|
FAQSELF
Member # 3
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 14:17
Profile
quote:Hmm, I'd be curious as well, though I have a proprietary interest... I've looked at your other complaint thread here on the lack of GF3 hints, and it seems as though you want things like artifact recipes, Area descriptions and general item/stat lists, and recommended Mechanical/Leadership skill level. All of these are in the FAQ you don't like. All quests are also listed, though not in a final list form. Do you have a really old version of the guide (0.3 ?)? The newest version is linked on this board. Of course, you're always welcome to write your own walkthrough if you think the one available is deficient. Just let us know when it's posted. quote:Ha! I relied on the game blurbs themselves for several of those sorts of things, except when they were egregiously wrong. Oh well. I used to test everything a lot more (especially for Avernum 2), but that got to be quite time-consuming. [ Saturday, March 24, 2007 14:25: Message edited by: Schrodinger ] -------------------- A few cats short of a kitten pot pie... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page. Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and Geneforge 3 FAQ. Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 14:44
Profile
Homepage
Some of those blurbs have been practically unchanged since Exile 1 even though the game engine has changed a lot. Geneforge has a few that were copied from Avernum, I think, even though the stats are different. But Str and Dex have been incorrectly described in multiple dialogue boxes for numerous games now. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 20:33
Profile
Homepage
I agree with the analogy that Geneforge is like a rough diamond. Geneforge is a fun game with a lot of potential, but some of the flaws and game mechanics need to polished out. Jeff should: 1. Listen to his fan base more often. 2. Seriously consider getting several long time fans to read and edit his game script. 3. Reform the Creation system. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Saturday, March 24 2007 20:50
Profile
Just getting Jeff to update those information boxes and help texts would be nice. They are the last thing that he does and he usually just cut and pastes the closest thing he can find in a previous game. I noticed that most players don't even read the instructions anymore since they think they are the same. That's why there was the problem with tool use needing to be on a mage character for Avernum 4. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
|
written Sunday, March 25 2007 07:43
Profile
Jeff's fan base consists largely of kids who just want to bash sprites, plus a few perfectionists whose demands would put him out of business. He listens to it just enough to stay in business, and that's all I think we can expect. Likewise for editing his scripts. As a beta tester, I have hassled Jeff plenty over things I think could be improved easily. But at the end of the day, I'm just an armchair game designer, and he's the guy with the real world track record. I'd actually rather he acted by his own lights, since it's his assets on the line, and he's more likely than me to keep Spiderweb afloat for future games. If my own ideas are so great, it's a free internet; I can always start my own shareware game company. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |