In GF3, is there any reason to sink points into Fire or Battle Shaping?
| Author | Topic: In GF3, is there any reason to sink points into Fire or Battle Shaping? |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Monday, May 29 2006 04:46
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IMHO, if you are a Shaper, it seems far wiser to sink points into only one shaping skill. And obviously, that would be magic. Magic shaping gives the greatest variation of damage (acid: artila, magic: vlish, poison: terror vlish, physical: glaahk, magic: eyebeast, fire: gazer). Added to which, the vlish is the most versatile and deadly creation in the game. Why bother investing in battle? For a tank? The extra points not spent on battle could go to magic, which would boost health of the vlish/glaahk. And the glaahk is an acceptable tank. The only slight flaw is that the glaahk seems a little overpriced. However, the stun and tiny damage it sustains when it takes on pylons makes up for this. Oh, and you miss out on Drayks. And I love to shape Drayks, merely to RP. :( Does anyone know when the bonuses from adding to Magic Shaping plateau out? [ Monday, May 29, 2006 04:52: Message edited by: Waylander ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 29 2006 05:40
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You hit the nail on the head. Bonuses start to plateau at 10. Up to 10, your creations get 1 bonus level per point. Between 10 and 20, they get 1 level per 2 points. After 20, they get 1 level per 3 points. 6 skill points for a level is still quite reasonable if you're a shaper. 12 is much less reasonable; at that point you'll probably get more in both the short and the long run out of some Intelligence. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5651
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written Monday, May 29 2006 05:53
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Added to which, Magic shaping can ultimately provide (along with some containers) you with the near-invincible Eyebeasts. Assuming GF3 is the same as GF2 in this respect, attacking all creatures within sight with a respectable amount of damage as well as - more importantly! - double stun is the single most powerful attack of any creation in the game. I prefer drayks to glaahks, but the drakons are simply too weak. Which is a great pity in the RP sense, unless their ability to shape was supposed to be their only value. [ Monday, May 29, 2006 05:54: Message edited by: ShadeOfWar ] -------------------- In D&D there are lots of gods. Some of them are Jesus Christ and Lucifer, and they have equal power. Players can choose either to worship one of them, and as most of them find it funny, they choose to worship Lucifer. It is one of the ways how pure souls are taken by the devil... Posts: 29 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 07:20
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Eyebeasts are all fine and good... At lower levels of difficulty. I find they tend to run out of fire at the worst moments when everything is nearly dead on Torment. Nearly dead of course, means they are very much alive, and capable of killing you. On higher difficulties, the fire resistant enemies are greatly magnified because of their health... And most end game enemies are fire creations... Dryaks, Drakons, Ur Drakons, etc. Once again, diversity and ancillary effects along with a healthy damage spread are key to survival. I tend to agree though, the magic branch of the shaping tree tends to be the best. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Monday, May 29 2006 07:35
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Delicious: quote:And yet ironically enough, this is an argument AGAINST investing in fire and battle. What exactly does fire give you? Creations whose main attack is either: Fire Acid Ice Battle gives you: Physical Acid You mentioned: quote:So two of the fire creations (fyora and drayk) are redundant. Their upgraded forms employ ice. I'm not sure about the resistances of ice against drakkons, but I know that a lot of nasties in the game can resist ice. Pylons laugh at the frost. Roamers employ acid. Artila employ acid. Searing artila employ acid far better than roamers. Roamers are suddenly redundant. Also, acid seems to eat through almost anything. Drakkons employ magic. Vlish employ magic. Vlish cost a tiny proportion of the essence of Drakkons. Then we are left with battle creations. Thahd, Clawbug and Battle Alpha all do physical. *yawn* Physical is the most commonly resistance in the game, and your creations waste half of their AP running up to the target. And the magic tree has hard hitters if they are really necessary (vlish are adequate, and glaahk are quite tough). Rotgroth does acid damage. Again, a number of creations from the magic tree do acid damage. The Rotgroth slows... so does the Vlish. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Monday, May 29 2006 07:50
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I think Jeff is taking his inspiration for creation trees straight out of the Key of Solomon. For what reason would Fire skill give you the ability to make Ice creatures? Or Magic the ability to make Acid creatures? I wish that, in G4, we would see some sort of logical system where more Fire skill lets you make better Fire creations. -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 09:53
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In defense of fire creations... I find Dryaks and such vastly overrated. However, Roamers and Cryoas are both powerful enough in their own way. Artillas, while they do more acid damage, Roamers can do something Artillas can not. Melee. Using one of my Hunter Guardians as an example, his Roamers stayed with him through the entire game, right to the end. Roamers are cheap and tough. They have a good melee attack as well as a ranged ancillary assault. They have a fair amount of hit points. They can act as either artillary or as front line fighters, and with some builds, this is valuable. Roamers on their own in a pack of high level creations might seem worthless, but when part of a carefully synergised pack, like with a Guardian, they prove their worth. They tow the line, pull their own weight, and prove their value. At higher levels, they age incredibly well, do a lot of acid damage, develop a powerful bite, and never seem to run out of energy. Cryoas are valuable for many of the same reasons. Those little blue raptors are nothing to laugh at. They have proven their worth as shock troops on Torment for me time and time again. Their ice breath stuns, and a pack of Cryoas can bring down many foes just fine, and can indeed, work right through the end game. They have a powerful bite. They are hard to hit and make excellent scouts, forward artillery, rear artillery, and bodyguards to keep close to you. Hey, stuff happens, stuff goes through the lines, and there are times when your Shaper finds himself in a bad spot. A pair of Cryoas are cheap insurance to make sure you can get away. Two hits will stun something if not kill it out right. A group of high level Roamers or Cryoas can fire their missile attacks all day it seems, the same is not true for Eyebeasts and Gazers. For extended skirmishes, some times staying power is more valuable than all out firepower. And don't laugh at Fyoras until you have kept a starting Fyora all the way through to the end game. A level 40 or 50 Fyora is much, much better than you realise. Pyrobite, one such Fyora, took two hard hitting Reaper shots on Torment and still had some of his health bar left. I remember that game fondly because I played a rebel that would not absorb his creations to be rid of them. I kept my starting Fyora alive through the whole game, along with a small pack of Cryoas and Vlish. I made it to the second island using only Pyrobite, Greta, and my Shaper. I didn't dare make any other creations because that would mean absorbing them later. Of course, this means leveling your creations and taking care to keep them alive until they mature. Fire creations over all, tend to mature well. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Monday, May 29 2006 10:00
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I think battle shaping is worthwhile exclusively because of rotghroths. They are survivors - lots of health - and their attack slows and is lethal to all enemies except other rotghroths. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 10:06
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quote:The problem with that is, the end game tends to be full of rotters. Even more so if you play a Loyalist... Making rotters generally worthless. That said, as a Rebel, you tend to run in to "legal" creation types in the end game. Betas, Alphas, Glaahks, etc. A rotter or two can rip through these soft creations, making them worth while. So it depends which side you take. Overall, as a Loyalist, they are worthless. You are better served by a pack of Vlish and Cryoas. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
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written Monday, May 29 2006 10:40
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Fair comment. However in the end game you are also usually fighting multiple enemies - for example in the monastery caves, the monsters are spawned in pairs of mixed type. While a rotghroth fights the enemy drayk/gazer/etc, one of the other attackers fights the enemy rotghroth. I find it's rare that a rotghroth doesn't have something to fight. And unlike magic creations, it never runs out of energy. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 10:56
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quote:Fair enough. But that is what they make Glaahks for... They never run out of energy either, and I dare say they are a tad bit better than rotters. Cheaper cost, better ancillary effect, etc. Seems a shame to dump all those skill points in to battle magic just to get a single rotter. Or two. All those points can instead be dumped someplace else. All that said, I still stand by battle creations. The game is more than numbers and dice rolls. There is also role playing and effective strategy. Battle creations can indeed be powerful, even on Torment, provided that you exploit their strengths. They are great damage shields and can act as a sort of mobile armor division to keep you, and your artillery, safe. A pair of Thahd Shades for example, do a great job at this. They don't need to do damage to the enemy, they just need to keep the enemy from doing damage to you, or your fragile snot launchers. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, May 29 2006 11:11
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First, as the other thread demonstrates, Roamers are almost exactly the same as Artila. Less so at lower levels, but the difference is still pretty small. In G1, Artila had a sub-par melee attack... that is no longer the case. Based on my math, rotghroths will do more damage than a gazer if their Quick Action kicks in, and less if it doesn't. They only have 6 QA. They drip acid, but not really any more than an Artila or Roamer ships out. Here's the thing -- gazers actually have a great melee attack. It stuns, and it does damage with 1-6, rather than 1-4 as Rotghroths and everything else do. So running out of energy isn't a huge problem, especially if you use a melee attack where it's sufficient. The advantage to rots, of course, is that you can shape them a whole island earlier. The place of gazers and eyebeasts is really alongside vlish, both so you can afford the essence cost, and you don't have to fire the kill ray constantly. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Monday, May 29 2006 12:20
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Which are better DV, Vlish or Roamers? Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 12:48
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quote:In what situation? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Monday, May 29 2006 13:44
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All around. I'm trying to decide which is better, to have an army of vlish or roamers for my hunter Guardian. He will have Alwan and a Glahk to hold the fron with ranged attackers(me and creations). I want to have all vlish or other things to either be able to slow masses of creations or just to damage while having the Glahk slow. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
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written Monday, May 29 2006 13:54
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Create a few roamers and a few vlish, try them out for a few islands, and determine from that which one works best for you. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Monday, May 29 2006 13:58
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If you want to slow a massive amount of things, Vlish win, due to the roamer not having a slowing attack. In my opinion, the only real reason to choose roamers would be sniping at fat things with acid. It's fun, but Vlish could probably tear that same fat thing apart. (And asking DV if Vlish are better than roamers is like asking the CEO of Budweiser what kind of beer he prefers). EDIT: I guess I'm wrong. [ Monday, May 29, 2006 14:01: Message edited by: Little Billy Sue ] -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Monday, May 29 2006 13:59
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For a Guardian, I would have to say both. Both are exceptionally powerful and can contribute to the damage spread in a variety of ways... You would have physical, poison, acid, and magic damage, means to counter regen, and slow. That is a powerful force of combined arms. Essence costs are also nice and low. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Monday, May 29 2006 14:04
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Key, thanks. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Monday, May 29 2006 16:24
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In my run through of the game... I mostly used fire shaping I found... Battle shaping I found pretty useless, I always liked to shoot enemies from a distance anyway. In Gf2, I found plated bugs to be really nice, but in Gf3, they only do D4 damage. The fact that they do D4 instead of D8 makes them much weaker. Rotgroths get the acid, but they never fit into my strategy. (Dont even think about ornks...) Ironically enough, I found a drakon *very* useful later on, good health and has parry. Found that my drakon and uber-boosted (Dex mostly) fyora were always in the front, where no one could hit the fyora and the drakon's hp and parry helped... In Gf3, a cryoa is a must have, let alone maybe a cryodrayk. There are a lot of things which are only vulnerale to cold, and where going into melee was a bad idea, against vlish and gazers especially... Magic shaping, never liked artilas... dont know why... Vlish are *very* useful with the stun, and terror vlish can pretty much hurt anything that isnt a construct. They versatility makes them quite nice. Never liked glaahks though, don't like melee units... Gazers are nice, eyebeasts just dont seem to cut it... Anyway, i think you could dump Battle shaping, but I would take Fire and Magic shaping to about 5 or 6 naturally at most. Want to save the points for inty... Thats my *humble* opinion anyway... [ Monday, May 29, 2006 16:26: Message edited by: The1Kobra ] -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |