Why I did not like Geneforge 3
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 11:37
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Let me preface by saying I have bought literally everything Spiderweb Software has for sale: Exile 1,2,3, blades; Avernum 1,2,3,4, blades; Geneforge 1,2,3; Nethergate, etc. I have played all of these to completion, and enjoyed them very much, with the exception of Geneforge 3. My goal here is not to bash Geneforge 3, but to give some heartfelt feedback on what did not work for me, that Jeff might take into consideration for future games. Now a bit about myself, so that my feedback can be understood. I prefer my roleplaying to reflect the choices I personally would make if thrust into a situation. I do not roleplay evil characters. I am OK with neutral characters as long as they largely can make morally sound choices. I view the neutrality to indicate more allegiance to their own internal moral compass than to the letter of the law. I prefer to play heroic characters, where the role playing situation allows them to perform acts of great good and kindness. This bring me to Geneforge 3. With Geneforge 3, my choices are too constrained. The game starts out fine, but at one point I am forced to choose one side or the other, and either way, I will be required to perform immoral actions to move the plot forward. Unlike Geneforge 1 and 2, there is no neutral path. In real life, I would flee from the situation to seek other choices. Given no moral or neutral course of action in the game, I chose not to continue the game. This leaves Geneforge 3 the only Spiderweb game I will never finish, unless it someday receives an update that will add a morally viable choice. I realize some people have no problem with playing evil characters or taking evil actions like slaughtering entire innocent towns. After all, it is just a game. They bought the game; they can enjoy it as the like. I have no problem with a game giving them the flexibility to do what they like. I just want the flexibility to do what I want as well. I personally cannot enjoy a game unless I am given choices that are morally viable for me. And there is no reason to continue playing a game you are not enjoying. I hope that by bringing this concern to the forefront, perhaps Jeff will take this into consideration when designing future games. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:37: Message edited by: Mike Montgomery ] Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 12:16
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Why you don't try to play like me? I wasn't rebel and I wasn't loyal. I did only what I belive. For example, I beliwed that Diwania was too much anger with Lankan. But I don't wanted to make Lankan a cold leader. So, I hit the source of the problem: I killed all the rogues. If you don't want to choose a path, make it yourself. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7002
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 12:31
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That was intentional. Jeff designed the game so that you had to pick between the Rebels and the Shapers. You have to decide which is the lesser evil. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 14:32
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This is actually one of the reason I abandoned Gf3 after Dhonal's island. I found myself stuck, because I was giving reasonable (usually pro-servile, or neutral) opinions, while doing loyalist quests. I know that Jeff is trying to make a point that "war is hell", but he does a good job of making both sides so repulsive that I don't want to join either of them. Neither the "lick my boots, slaves" Shapers, nor the "let's fill the land with monsters that kill any innocent villager they catch and prevent villagers from earning a living just to prove our point" Rebels look like an acceptable choice for a decent character. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 14:44
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Maybe I'm forgetting some of the plot; what I recall is that there are lots of opportunities for evil things, but the only people you really have to kill are leaders committed to one cause or the other, and that would seem to fall under the RPG version of 'just war' theory. It's true that both sides have their objectionable points, but both sides can also be interpreted as pursuing just goals by necessary means. And G1 and G2 were both like that, too. Is it that you feel there are morally superior choices available within the G3 circumstances, which the game arbitrarily denies to you as options? Or is it that you want the game to be a fantasy of morality as well as of magic, where circumstances never force you to choose among evils, but always include a purely good alternative? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 14:45
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I decided to kill both Rahul and Akhari, since both are completely crazy with power. Sadly, Akhari's summoned creatures don't do enough damage to actually kill him, so it didn't work out. But no-canisters rebel is pretty virtuous in my opinion. (Pssst.... Jeff...AWAKENED IN G4) -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 15:14
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quote:G1 and G2 had Awakened, whose policy was to do the minimal amount of violence nesessary to survive. In G3 your choise is between a tyrannical Shaper regime which is portrayed in a very negative light and the power-hungry rebel group whose tactic is to kill innocent bystanders just to steer things up. quote:If we are compairing things to real world, then it's G3 which is unrealistic in the black and black worldview it presents. It portrays the sides so starkly that your only options look like a choise between joining SS or KGB. I think you'll agree that people like Hitler and Stalin aren't the only leaders in the real world and there are few situations in which the only paths available lead to genocide (pro-Shaper ending of G2), or world war to gain personal power (Taker ending of G2). EDIT: As for the possible morally superior choices besides Awakened, what about Shaper-like group without the whole "lick my boots, slave" thing (magic has to be controlled, but that doesn't give us the right to treat people like slaves). And/or a rebel group that is more careful in its methods and whose goal was removal of shaper tyranny with as few casualties as possible, rather than "teh powar!!!111" by any means. EDIT2 [in responce to DV's post below]: You've just completely spoiled Geneforge for me. :P There are enough moral ambiguities in the real world to not have to also worry about them in computer games. I play games to have fun, rather than to deal with situations that are even worse than RL. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 15:45: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 15:34
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The Awakened suck too. Enslaving Drakons to do their bidding, reckless experimentation, demonic summoning, there was some really nasty skeletons in their closet. They seemed nice on the outside, but were rotten to the core when you think about it. In G1, they were the only faction that wanted you to use the Geneforge. In G2, Tuldaric is so far gone with canisters that he no longer cares about serviles or creations, there is no love left at all. Just empty power, and they push you to become empty as well. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 16:13
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In Gf2, it seems like *EVERY* faction is a large group of .......s DV sums up the awakened nicely, the Barzites take the worst of the takers and loyalists and combine them into a large colection of ..... The rebels/Takers are also *bad*, (Sarcastic tangent warning) ok, take EVERY canister you want, become a *Horrible* person running around *murdering* everyone who we dont like, become a horrible freak of nature.... and oh yeah,, help out some poor somewhat innocent serviles while you are out randomly killing everyone. The loyalists/Servants are the other worst end.. (Sarcastic Tangent warning) Ok, ENSLAVE and *Brutally* treat *any* creation that exists and kill *any* who show *any* interest in thierselves.. oh, and make sure horrible mutants dont blow up the world while you are busy torturing innocent creations. Sum it all up, *no* faction in this world is great, and.. go figure, the unaligned ending in G2 doesn't seem like a perfectly *moral* choice either... -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 16:20
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Originally by Delicious Vlish: quote:That's because in G1, the Awakened had nothing. They had a noble goal, but no way to implement it, or even protect themselves. quote:Really, slaying Tuldaric would solve some of the Awakened's problems. No more demonic summoning and fewer reckless experiments. Of course, that would also mean doing without the powerful shaping, but many serviles have already been shaped and would pass that along to their descendents. It would also mean deciding who would slay him and ensuring that no one took his place. There's really no moral justification for the enslaved drakons, but at least the Awakened in G2 are salvageable, unlike the Barzites and Takers. Dikiyoba. [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 16:21: Message edited by: Dinos In Khaki Invest Yen On Big Ad ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5363
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 16:52
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I find that the Awakened are just better at keeping thier skeleton closets hidden. Of the factions in G2, the awakened *seem* to be the most reasonable, and while Tuldaric is a "Large gaping Skeleton", that isn't the only thing working against the awakened. Its actually something I like about Gf2, as I think it would be pretty unrealistic if there was only one "moral" faction amoung so many ones that are just completely "immoral". Its one of the things I like about the GFs... -------------------- Learn from others mistakes. Its safer and more entertaining than learning on your own. Posts: 100 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Tuesday, May 23 2006 17:33
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In GF1 and GF2, to me the overriding moral goal was not the alignment with any particular faction, but the destruction of the Geneforge and any tainted by it. Any technology that grants so much power and simultaneously removes any kind of moral inhibitions against harming your fellow man is inherently evil. The question of which faction comes out on top pales in comparison with the necessity of destroying the Geneforge. As pointed out by Denos, though Awakened had some very good points, they did not understand the danger of the Geneforge. Still, they looked like the most salvageable faction. Destroy the Geneforge, kill Tuldaric, amd support the Awakened, and then you could have a pretty good outcome. As it was with the options available, I felt that playing an unaligned untainted character that destroyed the Geneforge was morally satisfying, even if the choices and endings were was not all that I wished would be available. quote:This is a GREAT question! That is precisely how I feel. I want to take up the rebel cause, but I want to destroy the abominations that the rebels have created that indiscriminantly kill those who cause they supposedly represent. But if I destroy the abominations, I have "picked" the shaper side, and can no longer get rebel quests that I could do in good conscience. I like the idea of MagmaDragoon of "If you don't want to choose a path, make it yourself.", ignoring both groups and just killing rogues. But I don't see how to advance between islands without helping one group or the other. Nor do I see how to get to a satisfying ending. I want some options to help me be a catalyst for change rebels or shapers. I don't want to help either side achieve their goals because their goals are misguided. I want to be able to influence their goals. This may require a rebellion within a rebellion, where you are given a chance to assassinate the rebel leaders who want to create unrest at any cost, and replace them with rebel leaders who had disagreed with their previous leaders "win at any cost mentality", but had been silenced. I'm sure I can't be the only one who recoils in horror at the thought of deliberately creating rogues who kill innocents just to cause unrest. A surgical removal of the cancerous head of the rebels might be just what is needed to let more reasonable leaders take power. quote:My thinking exactly! We are really on the same wavelength! Regardless of which side we help, we should also have the option to help steer it to a more moderate course if we like, as Zeviz suggests. Or perhaps help act as peacemakers which help steer both shapers and rebels to more moderate positions and then broker peace between them. So when we talk to rebels, we might have conversation options which agree with some of their goals, but deplore their means of achieving them. When we talk to shapers, we might have conservation options like what you find in Bicentennial Man, like "don't you think depriving freedom from any creature of sufficient intelligence to ask for freedom is wrong?" And instead of the game engine being confused about what side you are really on, it catches on that you are taking a neutral position, and instead tracks your influence by keeping track of how much each side is shifting toward center, until you get to the point where brokering peace is possible. This would be a very satisfying ending! [ Tuesday, May 23, 2006 17:37: Message edited by: Mike Montgomery ] Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 02:27
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quote:Well, in fact I was like Zeviz: pro-servile options but a rogue-killer. I choiced to obey at Lord Rahul only because I saw how cold and emotion-less has became Litalia. I want to kill the abomination that make this horrible thing. And I did. Maybe the problem of GF3 is that the Rebels aren't simply guys with pro-servile points or a group of indipendent and smart seviles: the look more like the Takers. Mad, want to kill *everyone*, etc... It seems more than the Rebels don't look if you like serviles, but look only if can kill more people. I mean, I never saw Litalia saying "We kill Shapers for Serviles Freedom". She only and always said "The Shapers must DIE". It seems that a faction is missing, there are only "Takers and Loyalist" in GF3, so where are the Awakeneds? -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 02:47
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I agree with most of what's been said, but I want to point out that the first two games were a lot better on this front. The Awakened were crazy in G2, sure, but not in G1. G1 also had some respectable Sholai. In G2, there was a non-aligned option. Although it was never explicitly outlined, it had its own ending, and I found playing it quite satisfying. Also, I think it's interesting that Jeff has only made ONE game in the past decade that hasn't made you pick sides, and that was arguably Jeff's least-plotful game -- Avernum 4. (The lack of picking sides in the other Avernums was predetermined based on Exile.) Nethergate and G1-3 make you pick, as does one of the mainline scenarios in BoE/BoA. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3618
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 07:33
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Yes, what exactly is wrong with the mild Shaper path? I gave consistently pro-servile answers, and so couldn't buy the highest-level creations, but I accept that morality comes with a cost (I did use canisters, trying to avoid situations that would set off my uncontrollable anger). I consistently killed rogues who were threatening innocents, but never touched serviles. At the end I got an ending I liked: the Shapers strongly disapproved of my views, but took me in anyway; the war was visibly killing off the extremists, and several other moderates were also rising in power. Things weren't perfect, but they looked to be improving. Posts: 33 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 08:05
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The issue is not whether you pick sides or not, but what options the game makes available in each case. I don't really see that the Exile/Avernum series had you pick sides. The majority of the quests were heroic, and even the worst quests were not overly objectionable (like smuggling drugs). And many quests you could just choose not to do if you did not like them. You did not really pick in Nethergate. It was like two separate roleplaying games in one, and you decided at the beginning which of the two games you would play. But regardless of which side you started, the quests were largely heroic. In G1, the Awakened were very reasonable, except in wanting you to use the Geneforge. The quests for the Awakened seemed moral to me. I would have prefered a G1 ending where the Awaken come out OK if you were aligned with them when you destroy the Geneforge. Because the Geneforge must be destroyed, regardless of the consequences to the Awakened. In G2, the Awakened had been perverted by their leadership, in my opinion. I would have liked an option to kill Tuldaric and have someone reasonable take over leadership of the Awakened. I played G2 unaligned and unmodified, and was happy enough with the ending. In neither G1 nor G2 did I feel the plot forced me to take on quests that were unethical. There was a path to walk; a more difficult path in G2 being unaligned, but a satisfying one. In G3, this does not seem to be the case. I just have not found a morally acceptable path in G3. Zeviz seems to share my delimma. MagmaDragoon indicated that he had made his own path. I will not repair devices which spawn rogues; in fact, I feel compelled to destroy any such device I find. Which seems to block the rebel path. But I don't want to help the shapers enslave or kill intelligent serviles either. At the risk of spoilers, does someone have a path through G3 that they can suggest that does not require immoral action? [ Wednesday, May 24, 2006 08:08: Message edited by: Mike Montgomery ] Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 08:16
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I think ThirdParty just outlined one. I don't know; this all seems like too much angst over an RPG to me. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6754
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 08:37
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It'd be just about impossible to make happen. But changing leaders' minds about their own goals? Ah yes. It's nice, rather than choosing to either obey or kill them. -------------------- One of these words is mispelled. Posts: 284 | Registered: Tuesday, January 31 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 08:49
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quote:Yes, but in the end, I killed the rebel chief. So I can say that I shared your delimma. That was for revenge Litalia and not for obey at Lord Rahul, but anyway I indirecly obeyed his orders. Then, I can give you a solution. Well, is not a real solution, but... Do what you belive in. Listen both Rebel and Loyalis opinions, but do what you want. When you will be in front of the Creator, make your decision. Not for Rebel. Not for Loyalist. For yourself. I can tell you, I was tempted to repair the Creator. Then I saw it. And I made my decision... "No. Too much people will be killed if I repair it. For now on, I will aid the Loyalist. The Rebels method are wrong. This is for you, Hoge." :( Maybe this because I fell bettere kill a Drakon than a man and his wife. I don't see myself as a terrible person when I try to protect my kind and the peace. Maybe not the justice. But the peace, yes. A last statement: "In GF3, the Rebels are the attackers. They started a circle of violence. The Loyalist, at least for now, are trying to defend themselves and the people." So, like Zeviz, I became a Loyalist in actions, but a pro-Servile (and a little Rebel :) ) in mind. (Whoa, very deep, huh? It seems that I don't write this... :D Still, I can surprise myself.) EDIT: As usual, Nick, you are very wise. 4 stars for you. :) ) [ Wednesday, May 24, 2006 08:50: Message edited by: MagmaDragoon ] -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 15:21
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Thanks for all of the good insights! When it comes down to it, I liked the rebel ideology, but hated their methods. I wanted to be a rebel, but I was barred from being one by the gross immorality of repairing the Creator. I destroyed the Creator, but this left me no way to progress as a rebel, and since I did not like the loyalist ideology, I stopped playing. It looks like I stopped too soon. The path MagmaDragoon and ThirdParty followed of being a minimal loyalist with pro-servile ideology could work for me. I think I will go back to my last G3 save and give it a go. Still, I hope Jeff picks up the main point of this thread: that there are some people who care about the morality of their RPG choices, and that he will take this into account in his future games, particularly Geneforge 4. For some people, the way they best enjoy an RPG game is to do whatever it takes to maximize the power of their characters. For me, I best enjoy an RPG game by making choices which maximize the heroism of my characters. If the RPG plotline choices restrict me into choosing between dispicable choices, I would rather not bother playing the game. Thanks again! Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Board Administrator
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 15:34
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I found this thread to be very interesting. Especially after reading in the Avernum 4 forum a long rant how I just make thoughtless games for 10 year olds now. I didn't have anything to say to that, because it didn't really seem congruent to reality for me. But this, I can respond to. In my games, I try, to some extent or another, to tell a story. I create a world. I create events in the world. I figure out what are reasonable reactions to those events. And I program them into the game. My resources are very limited, so I can only really script a certain number of responses for the player. I know this is a flaw, but it is one I can't avoid. In Geneforge 3, you start with a young character who has made certain choices and is in a certain situation. I figured out what I thought were to most viable responses to those situations. I agree with you that none of the options are entirely, perfectly moral. But this is how computer games can, I feel, be an artistic expression. The Geneforge games are an expression of how I see life works. Sometimes, you have to tease out the least ugly options of the choices you are offered. Clearly, you do not want to spend time in the world as I philosophically see it. I can understand that. And I don't think Geneforge 4 is going to be much to your liking either. But I am trying to do something different, something innovative with these games, and I know it isn't going to be to everyone's taste. The problem isn't you, it's me. :-) Now maybe I'll go back to the Avernum 4 forum and read how I'm just like all the big, soulless ... on second thought, maybe I won't. - Jeff Vogel P.S. I wrote this very carefully, because I know some people would happily get their giggles by taking my quotes out of context to make me look bad. I don't like having to be so guarded when writing on these forums. Please be assured that attempts to piss me off will succeed. -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 16:06
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Jeff, I think you did a fine job of forcing players to choose the lesser of the two evils presented. :P For a while, I really detested G3. I didn't like how I was forced to go along for the ride. After playing through it several times, I have come to change my opinion and see it for the game it was. The center did not hold and now both extremes are the gathering points for everything flying out of the center. It does not make it a bad game, just a very different game. Sort of like a book you can't put down even though you can not agree with it. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6754
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 18:22
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quote:Wouldn't it just be easier to diliberately misquote you? Who's going to go back and check? -------------------- One of these words is mispelled. Posts: 284 | Registered: Tuesday, January 31 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 18:46
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quote:. . . [ Wednesday, May 24, 2006 18:49: Message edited by: VCH ] -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, May 24 2006 20:26
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Originally by Nick Ringer: quote:Dikiyoba, for one. And in other news, as VCH as already shown, we now have the justification to attribute whatever words we want to Nick Ringer! :P Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |