15,000 Coin Limit?
| Author | Topic: 15,000 Coin Limit? |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 07:16
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I seem to have run into an arbitrary coin limit: 15,000 (I'm registered, so it can't be that). This gets to be a severe inconvenience when I have a lot of loot to sell, almost 15,000 coins, and nothing nearby to spend my excess cash on to make room! I assume most Avernum 3 players will know about this already. Is there a way around it? It's getting to be really annoying. -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 07:19
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Whenever I hit the limit, I just make note of it and use the character editor to set my coins down to zero. Then if I ever need money, I edit some of it back. Dikiyoba calls it the First Avernum Bank. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 07:35
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In the demo, there isn't too much to spend money on. When/If you get the full version, you can do many fun things with excess money: buy a mansion, augment all your mundane items, etc. -------------------- IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD: If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill her. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 07:53
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Buy spells in the middle of selling your items. You're going to be buying them anyway, and if your gold is maxing out, it's not like you're strapped for cash. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 09:28
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quote:I did think of something similar to that after I started this topic. The only problem in my case is that I often employ the "spray and pray" method when selling large quantities of unneeded loot, simply mashing the "$" sign on all the loot items without even noting their cost first. (I usually try to find a merchant that gives a good resale price, but after that, it's all button-mashing.) However, your method is more sophisticated than what I had envisioned (simply recording all the excess over 15,000 and awarding myself the proper amount later after spending a bunch of cash), and should be sufficient for my needs. Thanks! quote:Oh, trust me, I have done exactly that on many occasions . . . I've bought all the spells I can currently find and all of the potion recipes, too, not to mention a lot of alchemical herbs. (There are a few simple mage spells I still need to upgrade, but I'm currently not sure where their teacher is located.) ***** Why is the limit set so low? It's kind of a pain. [ Thursday, March 30, 2006 09:28: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, March 30 2006 21:16
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I found it's just better to stash items for later sales to keep away from the limit. By the end of the game you don't need the money anyway. Each game has a different limit. In Blades of Exile I found a bug where I actually exceeded the limit and got a negative money amount. I had to use the character editor to fix it. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Friday, March 31 2006 21:57
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Well, the 15000 limit in A3 is at least less miserly than the 9000 limit in A1. The most expensive things to buy are the special skills - anatomy, parry, blademaster, magery, etc. Generally I get around the gold cap by buying every level of these skills as soon as they are available which brings my gold rapidly down to zero every time. By the time I've got as far as 5 levels of all the skills available, it's pretty much the end of the game. If you don't need the money, don't pick up the loot. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Saturday, April 1 2006 12:55
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Yes, but from a game designer's standpoint, why have a cap at all? I've found Avernum 3 to be wonderfully open-ended, and was unpleasantly surprised when a few hundred of my coins vanished into the post-15,000 abyss . . . no warning, no explanation, just BAM. It took me a moment to realize what must have happened. The "First Bank of Avernum" idea is great, and it's easy to implement, too, so I don't mind the cap that much. And there's another mystery: One can open up the character editor to get one's self out of a tight spot or to cheat shamelessly. (I only use it for "storing" coins and extricating myself from truly insurmountable situations.) Since one can give oneself lots of money for free if one wanted, why bother with an in-game cap? As with the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop, the world may never know. Actually, I've heard that someone did an experiment to discover the secret of Tootsie Pops, but I forget how many licks they came up with. [ Saturday, April 01, 2006 12:56: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, April 1 2006 13:25
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Originally by Old Scratch: quote:Dikiyoba did that once. It's zero. Just stick it in your mouth and keep it there until it dissolves and you've never truly licked it at all. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1418
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written Saturday, April 1 2006 13:54
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quote:This page is full of lies, as we all know the answer is three. -------------------- Geneforge 2 Editor Posts: 406 | Registered: Tuesday, July 2 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Saturday, April 1 2006 14:00
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quote:From a programming point of view, the numerical values are finite and have a fixed length. In the Avernum code I think I am right in saying that no number can exceed 64,000 values. The game enforces a cap in order to avoid weird errors - like negative gold (which has been known to happen in the Exile games). -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Thursday, April 6 2006 13:51
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quote:Does that mean my characters can't accrue more than 64,000 experience points? That worries me a bit, since all of them have sizeable experience point penalties -- 35%, 30%, 30%, and 25%, to be exact. I thought that you gained a level for every 1,000 experience points, but the numbers don't seem to add up. Instead of docking XP as they are distributed, the game seems to give you full XP and simply increase the number of XP needed to reach the next level; that is, I'll have 44,000 XP but the character's level will be in the late thirties (instead of 44). If 64,000 is the value limit, then that really sucks, because all of my characters will only be able to get to level 40-something. The game documentation says that the number of levels you can attain are effectively unlimited . . . was that untrue? [ Thursday, April 06, 2006 13:52: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, April 6 2006 14:01
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You run out of enemies that give experience before you hit a cap. I'm not sure the 64,000 is true, but it's not worth losing sleep over either way. —Alorael, who doesn't understand why the limit is so low. 15,000 is small change by the end of any Avernum game. 30,000 would make far more sense and still leave a comfortable margin of 34,000 (35,514?) to prevent errors. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Friday, April 7 2006 15:22
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Yeah, the 64k was illustrative rather than precise; if the limit was indeed of this magnitude it would be 65536 (=2^16). In terms of game experience, my PCs in Avernum 3 have definitely exceeded 70,000 experience, so I would guess that this particular number has a maximum ~128k or even higher. Whatever. To get back to the original question, for purely practical reasons there does have to be a limit of some sort, but I do think the limit Jeff has set in all three Avernum games is annoyingly and unnecessarily low. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Friday, April 7 2006 18:01
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quote:Is that hexadecimal? I'm great at practical/intuitive mathematics (calculating distances, tabulating finances, conversion formulas, et cetera), but my skill at advanced math and especially my knowledge of mathematical terminology leaves much to be desired. I know that the formula above translates to "two to the sixteenth power", or "two multiplied by itself sixteen times in a row", but I'm not sure how that fits into computer programming or what category of mathematics it falls under. In any case, you seem pretty knowledgeable about the subject. quote:Of course . . . because the next power of 2 after (2^16) would be (2^17), or ~128k. Heck, I guess I learned something in school after all! quote:I know! I have never -- NEVER -- exceeded 50,000 coins in the bank. And I sell every piece of loot I can get my hands on (unless it's too cheap to bother with). I make multiple trips, carting it all to the highest bidder (usually Grove the magical weaponsmith). A limit of 100,000 -- or even 50,000 or 60,000 -- would have been more than sufficient. -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, April 7 2006 18:11
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That's binary. The question is how many bits (ones and zeros) Jeff allotted to store the numbers. If he allotted 16 binary spaces, the numbers can go up to around 64,000. If he allotted 17 spaces, the numbers can go up to around 129,000. This makes a little more sense if you think about it with fewer numbers. If you've got two spaces allotted, your numbers can go up to (2^2)-1=3. 00 = 0 01 = 1 10 = 2 11 = 3 If you've got three spaces allotted, your numbers can go up to (2^3)-1=7: 000 = 0 001 = 1 010 = 2 011 = 3 100 = 4 101 = 5 110 = 6 111 = 7 The pattern continues. [ Friday, April 07, 2006 18:11: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Friday, April 7 2006 18:21
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quote:Ah yes, I see! Because each time you add a slot, the number of possible combinations doubles. This is one aspect of mathematics which I'm very good at. I play tabletop roleplaying games, and I also design them -- which means that I need to be able to calculate the percentage chance of getting any given number combination on a given set of dice. Take three six-sided dice (3d6), for example. When you roll them, you can get any result from 3 to 18, but what are the odds of getting any specific number from 3-18? Figuring that out is complicated, and I have it all written down. Suffice it to say that 10 and 11 will be the most common numbers rolled, while 3 and 18 each have ~1% chance of appearing (because there is only one combination of all three dice that gives these numbers). The closer you get to 3 or 18, the lower your chances of rolling the number. -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, April 7 2006 19:48
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You get a perfect bell curve and your chance of getting a 3 or an 18 is 1/216, or less than half of a percent. But, moving right along, each binary digit is called a bit, and each bit has to be stored somewhere. The more information you want to store, the more memory you have to allocate to do it. Thus, most programs you encounter will have limits on accepted numerical values, although in many cases those limits are so large that you'll never notice. I don't think memory is really a problem for Avernum, but for whatever reason Jeff is stingy with his bits. —Alorael, who is a little bit embarassed that he misremembered his powers of two. Or his powers of two minus one, actually, which makes that even value even more suspicious. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6977
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written Friday, April 7 2006 23:10
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quote:Correct. The total number of combinations possible on 3d6 is, of course, (6 * 6 * 6), or (6^3). Since there is only a single combination that wil give you 3 or 18 (111 or 666), it's safe to assume that the ratio is 216:1, or a .4629% probability (1 divided by 216). That's the easy part. The challenge is in deciphering how many combinations are possible for 4 and 17, 5 and 16, 6 and 15, et cetera. Unless you know a convenient formula (I don't), you have to figure it out by trial and error. Or you can look it up online. After I did all of the math for 3d6 probabilities myself, I discovered that a Web site had a page up that listed them all . . . :mad: ;) [ Friday, April 07, 2006 23:10: Message edited by: Old Scratch ] -------------------- Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home. Posts: 66 | Registered: Thursday, March 30 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, April 8 2006 05:50
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Systematic listing usually isn't so bad as far as figuring out individual probabilities: 4 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 1 5 1 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 1 2 1 2 After a certain point, though, using a computer program — one exists, but I'm not sure which one it is — is probably better than listing out probabilities, though. Especially if you ever have to work with, say, 6d6. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6632
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written Saturday, April 8 2006 06:14
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quote:My fighter/priest singleton ended the game at lvl 71, with 118.000 xp. So a team of 4 wont have to worry about running into any limit at all. Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6908
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written Saturday, April 8 2006 08:27
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Nice thread to remember some Theory of Chances. I used to have a good point in it studing in in the University. For those who are really interested -there is a formula for the case of 3d6 to calculate a probability percent of a certain result. The scientific method to calculate for example the chance to have 8-sum of 3 dices is simply to calculate all the variants, giving you this result this way: 1 1 6 | 1 2 5 | 1 3 4 | 1 4 3 |=>6 variants for 1st fixed 1 1 5 2 | 1 6 1 | 2 1 5 | 2 2 4 | 2 3 3 |=>5 variants for 1st fixed 2 2 4 2 | 2 5 1 | ... 4 - 1st 3; 3 - 1st 4; 2 - 1st 5; 1 - 1st 6. So it is summ of 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21. Chance is 21 to 216. And for a any result X in this case chance is: double Chance(X) { Res = 0; Basement = 6*6*6; for (i=1;i==X-2;i++) Res += i; return Res/Basement*100; } I hope that wasn't TOO far from the thread's theme :) [ Saturday, April 08, 2006 10:40: Message edited by: Meeshka ] -------------------- 9 masks sing in a choir: Gnome Dwarf Slith Giant Troll Troglo Human Nephil Vahnatai "If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?" radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1 Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00 |