The nephilim language

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Author	Topic: The nephilim language
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, February 12 2006 07:11 Profile Homepage #175 Honestly, I disagree with Slartucker here. All verbs require a subject. Transitive verbs require an object. I think that saying that transitive verbs require a transitive subject just confuses the issue. Also, your table with tense suffixes could be clearer. It's probably worthwhile to explain on that same page the definitions of those nephil words for "past time" and others. It's also probably worthwhile to set up the table in such a way as not to imply that one would create a word that looks like this: "Malnaisehãmersim." (That's how it reads, straight across.) In addition, it appears that your verbs are going to end up being very, very long, all the time. Every single conjugated transitive verb in the system you've designed has to have a stem (at least one syllable, presumably), the suffix -nai, a personal ending (another syllable), and a tense ending (another syllable). That means that every conjugated verb has to be at least four syllables long. If that's the case, your language had better have pitch accent and plenty of open syllables or ellision, because it's going to be spoken at a very rapid speed. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Sunday, February 12 2006 07:25 Profile Homepage #176 quote: Also, your table with tense suffixes could be clearer. It's probably worthwhile to explain on that same page the definitions of those nephil words for "past time" and others. It's also probably worthwhile to set up the table in such a way as not to imply that one would create a word that looks like this: "Malnaisehãmersim." (That's how it reads, straight across.) Okay, for the time being I explained how it should be read. I'll change it eventually, though. quote: In addition, it appears that your verbs are going to end up being very, very long, all the time. Every single conjugated transitive verb in the system you've designed has to have a stem (at least one syllable, presumably), the suffix -nai, a personal ending (another syllable), and a tense ending (another syllable). That means that every conjugated verb has to be at least four syllables long. Yes, you're right. Nephilim will speak it quite rapidly. A conjugated verb isn't at least four syllables long though, but three syllables long (if it's in present). there are some things I didn't explain though, because I didn't make them yet. A verb will be no more then five syllables, as I see it now. EDIT: forgive me if I'm getting to personal, Slartucker, but may I know your real name (you can send me a PM)? [ Sunday, February 12, 2006 08:52: Message edited by: Thralni, The flying Dutchmen ] -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Rent-an-Ihrno Infiltrator Member # 3933	written Sunday, February 12 2006 10:34 Profile #177 btw thralni, you forgot to write tailok in the top of the conjugation tabels. ive been studying latin for 3 years now, but im a fast learner ^^ i must admit though that my english is far from perfect, so if i say something really stupid concerning nephilian/technical language-stuff, its probably because i dont know what you or myself is saying. oh, and there is no "racht" in german. but, for example, "rammbock", "randstein", "ratte", "rad", "rascheln", "rhapsodie", "rachen"...... id like to see more imperative forms, like "he shall do", "lets do".... you know? -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY **!!! Posts: 425 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00**
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Monday, February 13 2006 07:31 Profile Homepage #178 I know that there is no "racht" in German, I just couldn't think of anything else. What exactly fo you mean with "more imperative forms"? More examples? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Monday, February 13 2006 07:43 Profile Homepage #179 He meant third-person and first-person imperatives. These don't exist in every language. Latin, for example, circumlocutes to get a first-person plural imperative (using the subjunctive). [ Monday, February 13, 2006 08:01: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Monday, February 13 2006 07:54 Profile Homepage #180 Ah, I understand now. No, these doesn't exist in nephilian. In Dutch they also don't exist, as to reinforce what Kelandon already said. You just say "go!" (ga!) In all persons, except plural. that has a differemt form: "gaat!" -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Monday, February 13 2006 08:01 Profile Homepage #181 By the way, let me get this straight: R is isolation is pronounced like the English-language R — which is rather unusual sound — but in the context of certain vowels, it's a uvular trill (which is a completely different sound)? This would represent a really odd sound change — an original alveolar trill (presumably, if not a retroflex) which shifted in some positions to a retroflex approximant and in other positions to a uvular trill. This is possible, I guess, but strange. And how is stress or accent handled in your language? That's an integral part to pronunciation, after all. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Tuesday, February 14 2006 06:51 Profile Homepage #182 Um, no. I tried to find the correct word to portray that, but I see I failed. Its like in the german rot. That's the german/Dutch R, not the English one. With a vowel (A and E) it is an uvular trill. stress and accents are a bit complicated. One day I will have updated that pronunciation page (presumably next week: vacation week). Then accents and stress will be also described. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, February 14 2006 07:29 Profile Homepage #183 Okay, so from what I've gathered from Wikipedia, Dutch uses a uvular approximant for its R. Some dialects of German do this, but some do not, so I'd be careful about calling it the Dutch/German R. Honestly, I think you'd be best served by just calling it a uvular approximant, and then stating that it is the R found in Dutch, some varieties of French, and some varieties of German. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Tuesday, February 14 2006 18:04 Profile Homepage #184 quote: Honestly, I disagree with Slartucker here. All verbs require a subject. Transitive verbs require an object. I think that saying that transitive verbs require a transitive subject just confuses the issue. But in Nephilian, the subject of a transitive verb is in a different case from the subject of an intransitive verb -- so this is quite relevant information. As far as prodrop goes, I didn't see it in your descriptions anywhere, but there were some example sentences that had subject pronouns omitted. Also, I see what you mean about the tenses now. Your table format makes it look like there are four different suffixes for each person/number combination, one for each tense. If the table is going to contain TWO different types of suffixes, you should label it appropriately. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Tuesday, February 14 2006 18:34 Profile Homepage #185 quote: Originally written by Slartucker: quote: Honestly, I disagree with Slartucker here. All verbs require a subject. Transitive verbs require an object. I think that saying that transitive verbs require a transitive subject just confuses the issue. But in Nephilian, the subject of a transitive verb is in a different case from the subject of an intransitive verb -- so this is quite relevant information. Yes, but defining a transitive verb as one that has a transitive subject seems odd to me. The only way to tell a transitive subject from an intransitive subject is by its case, but the only way to know what case the subject ought to be is to know whether the verb is transitive or intransitive. This is horribly circular. One can avoid that by saying that a transitive verb requires an object, and then one can describe the use of the cases from there. So yes, give that information, by all means, but don't define it that way. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Rent-an-Ihrno Infiltrator Member # 3933	written Wednesday, February 15 2006 09:40 Profile #186 the german r definately is the german r. there are hardly any dialects that use a slightly different one. i know, i live in austria. i think that transitive/intransitive-discussion is going in circles. id look after completing the conjugations and the work on the vocabulary. -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY **!!! Posts: 425 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00**
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, February 15 2006 13:49 Profile Homepage #187 quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: the german r definately is the german r. there are hardly any dialects that use a slightly different one. i know, i live in austria. I've heard from a couple of sources that several closely-related trill and approximant sounds are considered allophonic in German. They'd sound the same to any German speaker who doesn't have some phonetic background, but they're not quite the same. That is, they'd probably sound the same to you. Specifically, I'm told that different dialects of German have a alveolar trill, a uvular trill, or a uvular approximant (or even a uvular fricative), and they're all considered allophonic. This may be dying out, though, since I get the feeling that the uvular approximant/fricative is winning, so you may very well be right that there's only one kind of German R; anyone have more specific information? In fact, come to think of it, which variety of R would you describe as being the German R? [ Wednesday, February 15, 2006 13:54: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, February 15 2006 13:52 Profile Homepage #188 All right, you've convinced me Kel. And it is horribly circular. Syntactic theory is full of horribly circular definitions. You might appreciate the following exchange I had with my syntax prof two years ago: "So we know the subject is in SpecTP because it's the thing that sits in SpecTP?" "Yes." -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Rent-an-Ihrno Infiltrator Member # 3933	written Thursday, February 16 2006 03:14 Profile #189 those varieties of the german R are definately dying out. one can sometimes hear it in comedy shows, but its really not to be considered in this subject. there are of course accentuated Rs, but the differences are so small foreigners surely wont notice. the uniform R i would describe as the standard fore-mouth trill, but a few millimeters further into the throat. what about word order/sentece build ? -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY **!!! Posts: 425 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00**
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Thursday, February 16 2006 03:58 Profile Homepage #190 The german R I'm talking about is the one i think mentioned by Rent-an-Irhno (I really like that username). It's probably the same in dutch: there are many and many more pronunciations of the R in different dialects spoken in different cities. for example, the leiden (the place where I live) R is totaly different from the R as pronunced in Friesland. however, there is one uniform R, and that is the R is the word rood: I suspect that this is the R mentioned by Rent-an-ihrno. I'm now going to change the verb pages, now that everybody agrees. About sentence build: this is very strict. one word in the wrong place, and the sentence will mean something different. Same goes for suffixes in words, by the way. more about this later. EDIT: updated conjugation and a small bit of the pronunciation page [ Thursday, February 16, 2006 04:46: Message edited by: Thralni, The flying Dutchmen ] -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, February 16 2006 07:46 Profile Homepage #191 This is why I can't stand getting information about the Germanic languages online. It's all vague and hopelessly contradictory. I guess if this makes sense to speakers of those languages, it's okay, but I ask that you give some sort of phonetic description as well (uvular approximant, alveolar trill, whatever), so that non-German-speakers can figure out what on earth you're talking about. As always, I refer you to the Wikipedia page on IPA for the most complete and easy-to-access treatment of phonetics online. And wait... word order matters, but the language is heavily inflected (with cases, conjugations, etc.)? This is odd, but I guess I'll have to see what you do with it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Thursday, February 16 2006 09:24 Profile Homepage #192 If you have looked at my pronunciation page, you would have seen these tiny letters saying: quote: Note that descriptions on placement of the tongue, position of the lips and the like, will be added later. And that is already a long time there... The word order can make the whole sentence different. this is in particular with certain cases and verbal forms, of which one is the equative verbal form. For the rest, you'll have to wait patiently, I guess. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Rent-an-Ihrno Infiltrator Member # 3933	written Thursday, February 16 2006 10:16 Profile #193 sry kelandon (or may i say kel? :D ), but im not used to that vocabulary in english. ill see through it. thralni, your tabels are a little confusing. and the counter on the main page doesnt count all the visitors, but only my own visits. -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY **!!! Posts: 425 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00**
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Thursday, February 16 2006 10:35 Profile Homepage #194 What exactly is confusing about it? the counter I can't do anything about, I'm afraid. i can of course just take it away. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, February 16 2006 12:30 Profile Homepage #195 quote: Originally written by Rent-an-Ihrno: but im not used to that vocabulary in english. ill see through it. For you, I provide a direct link. Is your standard German R an alveolar trill, a uvular trill, a uvular fricative/approximant, or something else? (Note that each page for each sound has a sound sample on the right side.) [ Friday, February 17, 2006 07:22: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Friday, February 17 2006 05:15 Profile Homepage #196 It is the uvular trill. By the way, with what program am I supposed to open a ".ogg" file? it wasn't necessary, I just read the description, but still. Now before you are gonna say that the three pronounciations of the letter R are actually all the same (R, RE and RA, they are all uvular trills), I would like to say that this is not the case. their is a clear difference, a difference that can chnage the entire word when the wrong letter is used, between these three forms of the letter R. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, February 17 2006 07:24 Profile Homepage #197 Uh huh. So what exactly is the difference between these different R's, then? To open an ogg file on a Mac, you can use Audacity, among other things. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thralni Master Member # 5977	written Friday, February 17 2006 07:30 Profile Homepage #198 except for the fact that a R is put at different places than the Ra and RE, the RA and E are simply pronounced in a slightly different way. While the R is just an uvular trill, the RA is pronounced as in the RA of Ramstein. the RE is pronounced as the RE in (the German) Recht. It makes a difference if you say miRArim, or miRErim. mirarim is a verb, mirerim is just a horrible pronunciation mistake. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 \| Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, February 17 2006 07:42 Profile Homepage #199 It seems unlikely that they're all uvular trills if they're actually pronounced differently. I'm just going to ask my German teacher this morning if he has any idea what you're talking about. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00