A Question about the Slith and Nephilim
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| Author | Topic: A Question about the Slith and Nephilim |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 13:00
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Okay. Its really nice that you have a higher vantage point and the like, but, well. You may say so if you do not agree, but I really think (and that's my own view on this) that it would be far nicer and more interesting if you have more difference between species. Do you really expect to find almost only humanoids, in a place were the sun never reaches, is it really necesarry to have real arms ad the like? I don't think so. being like a slime as in Av 3, is just enough to survive. Don't you agree? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 13:10
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quote:How much of this do you suppose is superfluous? But to address your point: yes, creature variety is good. But humanoids can also be interesting. So there. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 13:13
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That was just to ensure, that nobody wouls, well. I don't know actually why. But well... after all my posts on this topic, I think you can say I don't like to have many humanoid species, but that I want a big variety. I'm going to enjoy the rest of my three week vacation now! :D I'll maybe tell you all about it when I come back (I'm now in Ithaca, a town in the north of the US). -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 13:34
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quote:Of course, and that's why there are slimes, lizards, chitrachs, hydras, and other fauna in Avernum. Civilization, howerver, pretty much requires arms for tool use. Non-humanoid hunter-gatherers would be possible, but even that is greatly facilitated by the ability to make and use tools. —Alorael, who will use this as his explanation for why there is no great civilization of Gazers. Eyeballs are simply no good with an axe or an adze. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 16:14
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Now that's a pouint I actually do agree with. Very clever. i wish I thought of that... But: there remains one big thing, that everyone probably has its own view on. WHY do you have to have arms for civilisation? Think different than our "earth" style of living. Think of a totally different culture, way of living. would you really require limbs? I think not. For tool use, yes. But what if they don't have tool use? maybe they have a totally different way of builing huoses (if they have any). think in these terms, and you'll discover they really don't need it as bad as humans in general would think. That's only because two things: 1 humans are used to using arms and legs for these purpuses, which brings us at point two: 2 because we use them, we automayically think of ALL species that they need them. That's not true. The human imagintion is actually not as great as we think it is. We find it VERY hard to come up with a reasonable looking alien. EVERY alien in books, in movies in whatever, have arms, legs and the like. I say: that's unnecesary. That was my last sermon for the day. I say: I'll see you in two weeks, when I'm back in Holland (I hope my flight back is again with the Boeing 777: its the most luxuary airplanes I ever flew in! I'll tell you all about it when I get back!). -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 16:21
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quote:If they don't use tools, they don't have any technology. If they don't have any technology, I don't think they could have what we'd call a civilization. They could be intelligent and live in the wild, but that's not a civilization. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, July 13 2005 18:29
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They could, in theory, have limbs and bodies infinitely capable of rearranging themselves that they can personally function as everything from a mortal and pestle to a loom to a port crane capable of lifting several ton loads. I find that so hard to describe plausibly that I'd rather see yet another humanoid alien. Let's go back to arms. Even if you have no tools, you really need limbs, preferably with opposable digits, to maneuver pieces of wood into the ground or blocks of sod out of the ground to make a house. If you want clothes, you need a way to weave them. If you want anything, you have to manufacture it, which requires progressively more complex tools. Unless all finished goods grow on trees in some bizarre hypothetical world, limbs are necessary and tools are too. There is a tendency to assume a two arm, two leg model, which isn't really necessary, but in movies an extra limb means more trouble acting and in RPGs extra limbs mean someone wanting to wield that many weapons at once. —Alorael, who will still admit that telekinesis would work just as well as limbs in most cases. It still wouldn't obviate the need for tools much of the time, though, unless it is capable of truly astounding micromanipulation. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, July 14 2005 05:16
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I was just going to mention telekinesis ... you don't need any shape for that! -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Thursday, July 14 2005 09:20
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quote:Not necessarily. You can wield tools in your mouth (or any other orifice, given sufficient flexibility). -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 14 2005 11:55
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quote:Ugh, that just put horrible images in my head... [ Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:56: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, July 14 2005 14:36
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There's still a large advantage to having your manipulative organs (he he!) on the ends of maneuverable poles. There's a distinct problem with, say, hammering with your face. —Alorael, who will look for articles citing the fact that only humanoid bipeds are capable of telekinesis on a level sufficient to support civilization. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5986
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written Thursday, July 14 2005 14:56
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quote:Now this I've got to see...articles on humanoid telekinetics. By the way, your newest moniker is rather hilarious. Hats off to your creativity, Alo. -------------------- Wu wei... it's the only way Posts: 154 | Registered: Monday, June 20 2005 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Friday, July 15 2005 11:36
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OK. I'm sorry to say people here limit their imagination very much. This tool use problem... it really isn't necesarry. Look, we are talking here about a not existing lifeform, so don't be so unoriginal. How do you know they need tool use. how do you know they manufacture things. Now think a bit before posting replies that just say what others already have said. You are in a cave. a lifeform living in a cave, actually doesn't need houses. maybe a fence or something. Its not that it is going to rain in a cave. the cave is, in fact, a shelter in itself. Now the next point. Now we are talknig about houses and shelter, these are made with tool use. Agree? how do you know the lifeform needs it. WE need it. Maybe THEY don't. Everyone limits his imagination to what we are used to of ourselfs. WE make houses and use tooluse, so also THEY do. Kelando said somewhere earlier, that civilization can only exist if you have limbs, so you can have tool use. How do you know that civilization is the same with this lifeform? we are now talking about how WE know it. maybe it isn't the same with them. Maybe they don't need shelter, maybe they don't have gods (the Vahnatai don't have gods as far as I know). does ANYBODY understand my point? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, July 15 2005 11:52
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Maybe they have a hive mind, and they are all under the power of the collective. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, July 15 2005 15:09
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Seeing as how this planet alone is gifted with millions of species, it isn't unreasonable to expect that given the constraints of this planet (ie. gravity, temp, humidity, radiation, atmosphere) and the time that "life" has existed here that pretty much every general form of life has been realized. I agree that in a gaseous world (like the sun?) there would be little need for the corporeal, and in a aqueous world the limbs as propulsion could be replaced. The central theme in species is this: being able to stay alive long enough to mature to the age where reproduction is likely. The key for RPG's is (don't shoot me TM) is familiarity, aka being able to identify with the character. That still leaves room for suspension of disbelief, but there is a rational limit there too. It may be difficult to play a slime (sorry ADoS) using the current BoX engine. Maybe someone can work on that, but I wouldn't. As far as the civilization/tool use/limbs debate, it is extremely difficult to produce food without tool beyond immediate needs. Even then, most cultures in the hunter-gatherer phase were extremely protein deficient. That is why (a hypothesis) that intense use of tools began in the same historical period as the beginnings of civilization. I'm not talking about the fertile cresent, but earlier hominid societies where hunting tools were used. Despite lack of written language, there is evidence of oral history going back thousands of years, which points firmly at tribal culture having achieved some degree of civilization. That long bit was to bring forth the theory that the increased use of tools led to better diet, which led to more powerful brains (culminating in Thuryl, so the rest of us can quit trying now,) and now bigger/better tools. The logical extension to that is that humans may be evolving further, and in the same direction, which would further augment brain capacity. It is difficult to back this up, especially with the universal 18th century diagnosis of " she's a witch! Burn her! ," but the increase in abnormal brain function (specifically autism) may be an evolutionary advance in the human species. I have not read it, but an autistic chap in India managed to write a book on autism (the kid deserves a Nobel) called Beyond the Silence . I am in awe. Anyhow, yeah, I want to see humanoids, cuz I can't imagine being anything but. *this message sponsored by futurama - where heads order robots to do their bidding* -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, July 15 2005 19:38
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Okay, we have a lifeform that lives without tools. It finds its shelter, gathers or hunts its food... and you have, at best, a very primitive society. There is no reason to band together, and need for food dictates that the creatures should, in fact, disperse into smaller social units. Would such a race work? Yes. Would it be interesting? No more than a kind of alien caveman. If the species isn't humanoid, it's even more likely that it resembles an especially clever animal. What definition of civilization are you using? I would say it requires large gatherings and specialization, neither of which are very possible without tools. —Alorael, who suggests an illustrative example. Describe a race that meets your criteria. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 06:50
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quote:On the contrary, it is unreasonable. Life forms are in competition with each other, and may inhibit or influence one another's development. For instance, in New Zealand where there used to be no mammals, unique forms of birdlife were developed - as soon as they came into contact with mammals they became extinct (or at least endangered). The existence of one species may prevent another from being viable, and vice versa: it is a matter of luck which one comes first. There are not enough continents on this planet to argue that every possible species has been given the chance to develop on its own without interference. If one accepts that mutations are random, then another planet with the same starting conditions could end up with entirely different forms of life. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 10:01
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I can certainly appreciate that at the species level, there is change over time and space. But the genera, family, and order levels are pretty consistent across all continents. But that is why is said "general form." Birds, ants, mammals, and even marsupials have evolved separately across each continent. That is what this planet is capable of developing. As far as the randomness issue, another planet with the same atmosphere as earth would not evolve large land mammals without hemoglobin (or a substitute) or birds that could fly. Other planets with our gravity system would not develop 100 foot tall mammals. Of course a great role in the development of creatures is available food supply. After all, that is the factor that gave charles darwin his keynote speech for the royal society. You are absolutely correct about the isolation factor of NZ and Australia. The more I read about those countries, and the types of species that developed under those conditions, I am more amazed. Especially when faced with introduced species. *this message sponsored by the national invasive species counsel* -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 11:04
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All of earth's continents used to be joined together, and only split apart very recently, around 180 million years ago. Those genera, family, and order levels were all developed before the continents split apart. Birds, ants, moths and flies all developed 225m years ago; mammals developed during the triassic period between 248m and 206m years ago. Our continents are hardly isolated (most of them have land contact with the others) and not enough time has passed for significant inconsistencies to develop. Edit: not to mention, it is impossible to go right back to the drawing board once other species are already interfering with your development opportunities. Edit 2: I still don't think I'm being clear enough. I'm saying that earth and a hypothetical planet X might start from similar conditions, but the minute the very first species evolves it will influence all the subsequent ones. The general forms of viable life on earth are not independent of each other, however the forms of life on earth are independent of those on planet X. It is fundamentally unsound to extrapolate from the variety of lifeforms on earth to predict the variety of lifeforms on planet X. [ Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:29: Message edited by: Micawber ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 14:55
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quote:That's not even remotely what I said. I said that civilization requires tool use. Intelligent life can exist without civilization, you know — humans did for hundreds of thousands of years. I think Alorael sort of beat me to this point, but I can't stand being misquoted. EDIT: Uh, Micawber, the mammals that developed a couple hundred million years ago don't much resemble the mammals today. From what I understand, planetary features do play a significant role in determining limits on size and other traits. [ Saturday, July 16, 2005 15:00: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 18:48
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quote:Now I'll echo Kel and point out that evolution tends towards fitness. While species might start out very different, in similar conditions animals will evolve analogously to fit the same niches. Planet X might have something that isn't a bird, but it'll be like a bird. And so on. —Alorael, who of course assumes something of an infinite timeframe so that evolution reaches perfect fitness. There's no guarantee that the analogous evolution will have the same traits in the same order, or that it won't pick up side variations here and there. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 643
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 19:12
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I may be going off topic of the current off topic, but I think I saw it mentioned a few times in this thread about the only civilised races in exile/avernum being humanoid bipeds? What about the Aranea, Naga and Eye Beasts? all of them appeared to have developed culture, languages, social structure and in some instinces even organized armies? I think both kinds of civilisation have been expiremented with in the series (though I admit the less humanoid bipedal races appear to have less ability to act in a non-evil way in the series, with the exception of possibly the GIFTS but I'm not sure how intelligent or civilised anyone would claim them to be). -------------------- Fine Meal is people!!! Posts: 289 | Registered: Saturday, February 16 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, July 16 2005 21:59
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Wolves on our planet have a rudimentary societal structure as well. Most herd/pack animals do. It doesn't make them intelligent or civilized, just organized. *this message funded by the WWF* -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Sunday, July 17 2005 10:23
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I brought up the Gazers, actually (I can't really tell the difference!), and while they are intelligent and do show signs of cooperation, I haven't been able to find any sign that they have any civilization of their own. The same goes for the nagas. The aranea do have a civilization. A primitive one, perhaps, but definitely civilized, complete with some degree of specialization. —Alorael, who will point out that the problem has never been the bipedal part. It's the hands that matter, and nagas have them. aranea kind of do. Gazers and Eye Beasts probably don't, and I haven't seen any signs of civilization. (They're good candidates for magical tool manipulation, though.) Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 643
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written Sunday, July 17 2005 11:59
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Never remember the Naga having hands, just a long snake body and a womans head? And what exactly is all that pink stuff holding Gazers and Eyebeasts together? apparently it burns you, acid goo? stinging tentacles? magical force fields? -------------------- Fine Meal is people!!! Posts: 289 | Registered: Saturday, February 16 2002 08:00 |