Poll: Password protected scenarios: what do you think?
| Author | Topic: Poll: Password protected scenarios: what do you think? |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Friday, August 27 2004 02:58
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Password protected scenarios: what do you think? Vote in my poll, please: Click here. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, August 27 2004 03:15
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Remember, the scenario editor is open source. Since Jeff can't/won't write an algorithm to encrypt scenarios, it would be absolutely trivial to make a hacked version of the scenario editor that doesn't ask for the password. In short, it's impossible and it'd be a bad idea anyway. Information wants to be free. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Friday, August 27 2004 10:49
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Hm, I suppose I can't vote there without registering =_= I'd say: No for passwords - but yes for donation possibilities. -------------------- Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm * Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet? Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, August 27 2004 13:02
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It could be possible, and nearly as trivial, to implement real encryption with free encryption libraries, but why? The password system in BoE caused more problems for people who wanted to look at other people's work than was really necessary. It was also really sad for those who forgot their passwords, and the check for the password is easily bypassed anyway. I wouldn't know how to do it, but there is definitely a way. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Friday, August 27 2004 15:48
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New designers tend to feel very protective of their work. Older designers realize this is just silly. I passworded Isle of Boredom, Ugantan Nightmare, and Deadly Goblins. I left To Live in Fear, Revenge, and Areni open. There's no need for passwords. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 02:04
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quote:That's necessary, to avoid cheating ;) Without registration, people could vote as many times as they wished. :) quote:I agree with the use of passwords. Not to protect the work, but to avoid cheating (keeping a secret what is to be a secret). People say the password check could be easily hacked... Maybe. But I bet most of us wouldn't know how to do it. Or would have to be really motivated to search a way to do it, so this would just drive off the casual cheater, cut the temptation to look in the editor and the scripts. ;) If there was a password, I would give it to the player when he reached the end (or all endings) of the scenario, so that he could have access to a "make off" the scenario. But until then, he would have to figure out things by himself or some other player's tips. Of course, this would depend on people good will: they would be asked not to share the password, as it would be a spoiler. [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 02:11: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 02:25
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I don't think designers should have the right to prevent cheating. If a player can't progress in a scenario, looking at the scripts or even editing them to get past a tough spot helps both the player and the designer. The player benefits because he's able to continue playing, and the designer benefits because one more person has been able to finish his scenario. Anyway, how would you want the password protection to be implemented: by encryption (which would make all the customised editors, which more than 50% of designers ALREADY use, completely useless for future scenario formats), or within the editor itself (which would mean that all of the customised editors would simply bypass the password check, making the password protection useless)? [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 02:27: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 03:08
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The first option would be the best one. :) I don't know where did you come up with that "50%", but I doubt it: the custom editors are Mac only, so Windows users (which are, AFAIK, the majority) don't use it. Anyway, I guess the custom scenario editors author's could update their editor... Edit: With a good scenario design, players shouldn't get stuck. Anyway, hints can be included, asked in the forums etc. I think it's more fun encouraging the player to win the game by himself, and to explore the scenario to find its secrets. More determined people would still be able to cheat: hacking the password, using the character editor, asking for help in the forums, etc... Some times people don't know what it's best for them. Some don't hesitate in cheating, and then wonder why they got bored so fast. ;) [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 03:24: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 04:27
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Well, so far there have only been 5 designers for BoA. Jeff Vogel didn't use a customised editor; Khoth, Eldiran and TM have, and I don't know about Erik Westra. :P It's naive to demand that every scenario design tool be regularly updated just so that it's usable at all. In any case, a reasonably secure scenario encryption system requires more changes to the engine than you seem to think. For one thing, encrypted scripts would no longer be editable in an ordinary text editor, so Jeff would have to create a whole new user interface just for editing scripts -- something which he's clearly expressed an unwillingness to do. [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 04:28: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 04:54
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quote:Everything about BoA is open-source except for the app itself. Having the scripts freely available to all tremendously benefits to the designing community, because we can see how other designers achieved certain effects. Also, if I have an obscure plot coupon buried in my scenario, I'd much rather have the player just open up the scripts and figure out where he or she has to go than search around for hours and get frustrated and quit. Also, Thuryl's right: whether this would be good or not, it's not going to happen. Jeff has said this outright. [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 05:34: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 250
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 06:53
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Password protection is a big no. First of all if players want to cheat they should be able to, I know a few people who have more fun with a game by cheating through it then by playing it normally. There is also going to be a time when the number of scenarios has risen greatly and people get stuck on some of the less played ones, and it the creator (of the scenario, not the creator that posts on the boards) has left getting help may be very difficult. A given rule is that no matter what the scenario unless its a simple as the tutorial some people will get stuck no matter how well its designed. Also keeping scenarios non password protected will greatly help new designers who could look at other scenarios for help with coding and such. Not to mention the amount of work it would take to encode a scenario. It isn't as simple as putting a password check in, it means that every script for instance must be stored inside one or more files all of which can't be plain text files or the scripts could be read. The scripts are where the majority of the scenarios secrets are hidden, and to block access to every script is hard to code and gives little benafit. The only time password protection in BOE has been used positivly was for scenarios that included halls of fame for completing certain difficult tasks, and the scenarios would be just the same without. Finally password protection would be breached far to easily. All that needs to be done is since the editor is open source, remove the part that checks for passwords. Now most people couldn't do this, but once one person does it and releases it every person who have the same platform computer can download it and ignore the password protection. So I give a resounding no to this idea. Posts: 61 | Registered: Saturday, November 3 2001 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 11:37
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Why are you people responding so long-windedly? It will NEVER happen, and and even if it does, any designer worth his or her marbles will NEVER use it. I haven't passworded a scenario since Unbalanced Accounts, and with good reason. EDIT: And for reference, myself, Khoth, Eldiran, Vogel and Westra are all Mac users: Westra did the cookbook before the PC version, and the rest of us were making scenarios before the PC version. [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:38: Message edited by: Deacon ] -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 12:35
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This is a silly game which is a lot of fun to play. Cheating is fun sometimes. It has no bearing on anything real. Worrying about whether someone is going to steal your picture of a goblin in a party hat or your special item code for an uber mace is silly. Pfft :P to passwords. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 15:28
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quote:But I'm sure those aren't the only one's who are making and will make scenarios, aren't they? :P quote:It would be just one update. quote:I should had been more specific: in a forum, you can receive spoiler-free hints. But you can also ask cheating questions. Obviously I was talking about the later. quote:The scenario author is the most suited person to know how his scenario should be played. And with this I'm not saying he should make the player to play the way he wants: that's different. But can draw some limits or give an orientation. quote:Apparently, thos people are not part of the "some" I mentioned before. Seriously, could you be a little bit more agressive in your replies? quote:No doubt. That's why I told about rewarding the player qho finishes the scenario. (Reward = password). quote:Sure, as I said, those who reeeealy wanted to cheat, would have many options for that (hacking the password, character editor, forums, etc). quote:I was talking about all players who are and will make scenarios. I guess you aren't 100% of the BoA community. BTW, just out of curiosity, BoAC's visitors with Windows represent 78% of the average visitors. With an average ~200 unique visitors a day, I guess this sample gives credibility to the mentioned percentage. Anyway, folks, I was just polling to know your opinion about the subject. This is not a sugestion to be sent to Vogel, in case that was what you were thinking. :) [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 15:29: Message edited by: Overwhelming ] -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 455
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written Saturday, August 28 2004 15:46
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A designer who promises to stick around and field bug reports for the next decade or so could reasonably claim the prerogative of slapping passwords on scenarios, along with whatever narcissistic payoff that provides. If BoE's history is any example, few will last that long. But what the hey, go for it: bestow the key to your sacred mysteries only upon the intiated. Then enjoy as those passwords get collected and disseminated. . . . The only thing perpetuating this thread is its own weightless irrelevance. [ Saturday, August 28, 2004 17:46: Message edited by: Boots ] -------------------- Forgive them, for they are young and rich and white. Posts: 265 | Registered: Saturday, December 29 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 07:12
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A few things: * BoE's passwording was implemented entirely in the scenario editor. Thus, it was trivial to patch the password out of the scenario or... do other things to get around it; Imban knows what I'm talking about. * Two-way encryption is inherently insecure. The very nature of its reversibility makes it possible, if not trivial, to crack. Remember, at some point the scenario needs to be unencrypted to play it; if you think a good cracker can't lift the algorithm to do it out of the engine, you are incredibly wrong. It's how keygen cracks are made. * All it takes is one person to figure out how to crack the editor or the game and the entire password system is foiled. BoA is not very big; it is easily redistributable. * If you can't unencrypt the scenario, it's useless. Period. Overwhelming: re. BOAC visitors: Are you taking into account dynamic IPs? Some dialup ISPs change people's IPs more often than my brother's girlfriend changes her hair. Also, are you referring to unique user agents, IPs, or sessions? I've never actually heard of a stat engine checking the second, the former is unreliable, and the last doesn't actually rule out the same person with several sessions. In any case, the visitors to BoAC are sadly insignificant. The simple truth is that as of now, the majority of actual released scenarios were designed by Mackers using modified scenario editors. [ Sunday, August 29, 2004 07:21: Message edited by: Andrea ] -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 11:51
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As I said, the password system wouldn't stop anyone who seriously wants to cheat: that person can crack or search for one. About the sample, I wouldn't say it's insignificant. It's true that the released scenarios were made, majorly, by Mac users, but you can't assume with that that the majority of BoA users are Mac users. And the percentage I indicated is very clear. Of course, one thing is a visitor, another is a scenario maker. About the visitor tacking system, it's a very complete one (I have access to much information about the visitors). I'm not expert on the subject, but I think it's IP based and cookie based as well. So even if someone changes IP in the same day, but still has the same cookie, it will still be counted once only (unless that person has dynamic IP and has windows security configured to no acept cookies and visits the site more than once a day. The probabilities are low). Also I have access to a log, with all visitor's IP's, etc. Although I didn't count them, I can extimate that the ~200 average is more or less accurate. And the number is still growing. In the first 2 weeks, it was 20. Now the site has a little bit more than a month, the growth is remarkable (at least, I wasn't expecting such fast growth). So I say it's significant those 78%. BTW, almost half visitors are from USA. Predictable. -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 12:03
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Two things: first, Jeff has said that approximately 60% of his sales for his games in general are to Windows and 40% to Mac. Whatever the BoAC visitor numbers are is not nearly as significant as what the BoA sales numbers are. Second, Jeff has said outright that he will not make a password system for BoA. It's not going to happen. This topic serves no purpose. [ Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:03: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 12:06
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Okay, Overwhelming, next question: Would you like Jeff Vogel to spend weeks or months adding a secure password system instead of adding new features and fixing bugs in BoA? Hint: saying yes won't make you very popular. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4637
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 12:20
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Ok, i'll repeat to you both: quote:That's just it. I just wanted to know your opinion: advantages and disadvantages. Kelandon: That's why I said it was just a sample. Anyway, I guess 200 is a better sample than half a dozen. And it looks like Vogel confirms that there are more PC sales. In general, I wonder what about BoA specifically. Maybe that value is bigger? The Mac version was released earlier, but I guess PC sales already surpassed it. Thuryl: See the quote above. Of course I prefer new featurse and bug fixing. (Specially bug fixing!) -------------------- Visit the Blades of Avernum Center and the Beta Testing Center -------------- "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9 Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Sunday, August 29 2004 17:51
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quote:Who else would be interested in getting into the scenario in the first place? Anyone who wants to use the scenario editor to cheat (I'm a huge cheater, and I never did that) will have no bones about cracking the editor. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, August 30 2004 03:39
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quote:Really? If I remember correctly, not only did you password Revenge, but you included messages in the scenario that gave false directions to confuse anyone trying to hack the scenario. Unless I'm mistaken, but as I myself had problems with that message when I forgot the directions Kassand gave me, I'm fairly certain I'm not. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4919
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written Monday, August 30 2004 15:46
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I'm just posting to say that I like your message boards, though I won't join, seeing as I don't own the game. Is there one for the Exile Trilogy or BoE? Posts: 18 | Registered: Sunday, August 29 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, August 30 2004 15:58
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This is the real Blades center. You may also find a link to the front page of the same site useful. All the die-hard BoE fans are at the Lyceum. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Monday, August 30 2004 16:09
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This is the only board for the Exile Trilogy I know of. The Lyceum is the place for all things BoE and BoA. Don't even bother with the BoAC. But how is this relevant to the conversation about passwords, I wonder? Hey, Kelandon posted at the same time as me. Well, yeah, same thing he said. [ Monday, August 30, 2004 16:14: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |