scenario criticism

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Author	Topic: scenario criticism
Errant Apprentice Member # 4160	written Sunday, April 4 2004 07:55 Profile #25 Plus, uh, I'm giving these scenarios ratings because I never got BoE... I hope people translate their BoE scenarios to BoA...there are some fundamental differeances between the two systems but Vogel has something in place that will at least make the transition quicker. Plus writing a scenario is very hard. Most of of the time someones first effort wont be their best...areas with lots of dungeons appeal to those who like to crawl but areas with just one town and all 100 dialogue nodes used more appeal to people who like social games. I myself am trying to find a balance between the two and "Suspend the curtain of disbelief" but its easier said than done. I really respect anyone who took (takes)the time to hack out a scen in BoE or BoA. Its easily a waste of...I dunno, hours upon hours of time? Granted I'm just a beginner, and alot of time was spent reading the instruction manuals that come with the game and playtesting, but through 20 hours of work I just barely finished my first town and a rough sketch of the outdoors. ;) If you don't like a scenario, try to write your own. ;) Posts: 40 \| Registered: Saturday, March 27 2004 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, April 4 2004 08:27 Profile Homepage #26 Well, yeah, if we were rating the BoE or BoA engines, they'd probably get extremely high reviews (although BoE has its flaws, well-documented at the Lyceum). But we were rating Jeff's scenarios, which should be on a equal playing field with every other scenario ever made. We weren't rating Jeff as a programmer or a person. There is something legitimate in wanted to rate BoA scenarios only with respect to other BoA scenarios, though. The only reason that we think of BoE (other than that the major personalities here have all played it) is that BoE gives us an example of what can happen with an engine. BoE hit its peak about four or five years after release, so we should be prepared to stick with BoA until 2009 at least, and our ratings from now will still be around then. With the possibilities of scripting, we want to keep those highest numbers free for scenarios that are truly spectacular, not just pretty fun. As a baseline, though, anything over seven is definitely a good scenario and worth playing. One thing that might be nice to keep in mind, though, is that Jeff's scenarios tend to be very finishable. To use BoE as an example, just about any newbie will be able to beat VoDT, but one might have to work one's way up to playing Doom Moon II, because the thing is bloody hard. This is not to say that one is better than another, but just that it is valuable to have both. EDIT: quote: I hope people translate their BoE scenarios to BoA... It doesn't look like anyone's going to. Get BoE. It's worth it. (By the way, there should be a discount for buying BoE if you have BoA, just like there is the other way around. EDIT 2: Oh yeah, Imban. Good call.) [ Sunday, April 04, 2004 10:28: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Sunday, April 4 2004 08:42 Profile Homepage #27 We're not rating Blades of Avernum scenarios against Blades of Exile scenarios - we're judging them based on their own merits and then placing that into a rating system. If we never get anything better than A Small Rebellion, does that mean that it should be a 10? It would still only be an 8.3 in my book. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Sunday, April 4 2004 10:17 Profile #28 Kelandon - There sort of is. If you buy another Spidweb game, you can get BoE or Nethergate at a discount. I think. Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Sunday, April 4 2004 11:02 Profile Homepage #29 For 40$ (not including tax or S&H), you can buy both BoA and BoE. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Dragongirl Shock Trooper Member # 3683	written Sunday, April 4 2004 20:05 Profile #30 is BoE that worth buying? I tried Nethergate demo and didn't like it though the story is interesting enough due to interface compatibility to my pc. The game is just too slow and char moving are even lousier than AV1. Posts: 266 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
Dragongirl Shock Trooper Member # 3683	written Sunday, April 4 2004 20:06 Profile #31 is BoE that worth buying? I tried Nethergate demo and didn't like it though the story is interesting enough due to interface compatibility to my pc. The game is just too slow and char moving are even lousier than AV1. Posts: 266 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
The Creator BoE Posse Member # 112	written Sunday, April 4 2004 20:07 Profile #32 BoE is indeed that worth buying. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 \| Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Monday, April 5 2004 11:48 Profile Homepage #33 If you liked the system and graphics of E3, you'll love BoE. If you can't stand E3, you probably won't tolerate BoE too well. —Alorael, who definitely gives BoE thigh marks for plot and for sheer volume of time you can spend playing the many, many scenarios. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Boots Shock Trooper Member # 455	written Monday, April 5 2004 12:11 Profile #34 Uh, Alorael, edit that sig quick afore more imaginative minds than mine see it. Oh yeah -- and your plan, outlined elsewhere, of playing the E3 demo to get a taste for BoE is right smart. (Though if people have now played VoDT in BoA, they can hardly be disappointed by the plot, etc., when they try the BoE one.) [ Monday, April 05, 2004 12:13: Message edited by: Boots ] -------------------- Forgive them, for they are young and rich and white. Posts: 265 \| Registered: Saturday, December 29 2001 08:00
I Am Damo Suzuki Warrior Member # 4204	written Monday, April 5 2004 13:17 Profile #35 quote: Aorael, who definitely gives BoE thigh marks.... A simple freudian slip, or a window into a darker universe? [ Monday, April 05, 2004 13:17: Message edited by: Wotan ] -------------------- What really went on there, we only have this excerpt... Posts: 68 \| Registered: Sunday, April 4 2004 08:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Wednesday, April 7 2004 16:03 Profile #36 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: ...As I said about VoDT in the Lyceum, I gave it that low a number (7.3) only because I want to save room up at the top for scenarios that I think are truly outstanding, rather than just good. Rates are generaly hurt through time. Appart if the engine is too much limited you'll find your 10 rated scenario and some month later you'll find another one clearly better. Constantly redo the rates of all modules you had play is also an impossible task because your memory will change many thing. So well rates doesn't work well through time so I don't think there's a need to plan for future. quote: Originally written by Kelandon: ...By the way, these are my standards, roughly (subject to change at any time without notice, based on playing two BoA scenarios): 10: super awesome; best scenario out there 9: really really really good; I was on the edge of my seat the whole time and enjoyed every word, but some aspect of the scenario (scripting, dialogue, plot, among others), was just good, not superb. ... It's better to use words to make more concrete asbract numbers. But it's still not an absolute scale. "super awesome" isn't more an absolute rate than 10. "best scenario out there" is a typical comparison scale and I don't see how doing different. It's just related to the problem mentioned above, the scale evolves because module makers will overall improve through time. It's sure that an engine even with plenty depth and possibilities will reach a limit crossed with a human invest time and effort limit. But just one maker could be enough to break the limit that you thought to have been reach. That said, BOA engine is perhaps so close to BOE engine that using the older BOE scale make sense and then a 7 rate of the best BOA 4 scenario is fair compared to BOE scenario. It's even more fair because BOA is more new and you can hope it allows better stuff. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, April 7 2004 18:25 Profile Homepage #37 I was trying to say that I gave the scenarios good marks. That's really all that was. I wasn't trying to lay out an absolute standard. Brett Bixler has a rubric for BoE, and it is apparently quite controversial, so I definitely wasn't going for that. I think the idea of scenario rating is that scenarios don't have objective value; some people will like some things and other will like others. Knowing that a few really like a scenario and a few really don't (a BoE example: Johnny Favourite) is informative, just as knowing that no one likes a scenario (A Little Girl) or that almost everyone likes a scenario (Redemption). That's what ratings tell you. quote: Appart if the engine is too much limited you'll find your 10 rated scenario and some month later you'll find another one clearly better. If I'm reading you correctly, you're articulating the reason that I will probably never give a 10. A few high 9's, probably, but probably never a 10. quote: So well rates doesn't work well through time so I don't think there's a need to plan for future. But this is quite another leap. I think that I'll more or less be able to maintain the system that I'm using right now for a while. The only reason that my numbers would fall apart is if I were to give ASR a 10 right now and VoDT a 9.5. As it is, I can probably use the numbers that I gave (ASR 7.9, VoDT 7.3) as the measure and rate anything I liked better than VoDT higher than 7.3 and anything I liked less lower than 7.3 -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
I Am Damo Suzuki Warrior Member # 4204	written Thursday, April 8 2004 05:27 Profile #38 What about the possibility of going back and adjusting old scores if some new scenaro were to merit it? If the ranking you give today seems hopelessly outmoded due to the advent of numerous superior scenarios, couldn't you just edit your previous rating to reflect the shift in the value structure of the whole scenario community? I think the ratings also reflect the overall shape of the various scenario offerings at the time they were reveiwed. We can't know what's coming, so why should we rate like we do? -------------------- What really went on there, we only have this excerpt... Posts: 68 \| Registered: Sunday, April 4 2004 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, April 8 2004 16:17 Profile Homepage #39 Changing all your ratings every time a brilliant new scenario comes out gets more difficult once you've rated 20 or 30 scenarios. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, April 8 2004 17:31 Profile Homepage #40 Exactly. Which is why at the Lyceum people are being careful not to rate too high, because those ratings become the measure for future scenarios. If you rate ASR as a 9.5, then every scenario that comes out that you like better than ASR, you have to give a higher number than ASR's 9.5. After a few scenarios, this can become a problem. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 12:04 Profile #41 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Exactly. Which is why at the Lyceum people are being careful not to rate too high, because those ratings become the measure for future scenarios. What you describe is more having a scale on 9 not on 10 ;) . I just wanted to point how having a rate scale through time is mostly impossible particularely when you have rate hundreds stuff. You can't rate them again if your scale evolves and even with small numbers just because of two reasons : - After some times your memory make you look different a scenario. - Even if you had the time to replay them, you'll in part rate it again as a replay not a play. It doesn't matter that on a scale on 10 you stick rating to 9 or 9.5. At the end you'll have modules rated 9.5 or 9 that have very different values. If you had to replay them in a row as it could happen to a newbie you'll be hurt to gave them a same rating. That's just a remark, no deep consequences :P Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 12:25 Profile #42 It's interesting to quote how most people that comment on best qualities for a module end to detail mostly only about quality on story writing implemented through the game. This is probably because the game is really good to design that but less on having fun from other game features. Like fighting design, puzzles design, secrets design, exploration design, character building design, sneaking action design, and many more game features you can find through different computer RPG, not necesseraly BOA. I don't say that story writing qualities of a module is (or not) much more important than all other features. Also I don't say that it's pure story writting but here the pen and pencil are the editors and the words aren't only the sentences. Still when reading the thread, the special words as fights, secrets and so on seems really important through their role in the story writing. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 12:44 Profile #43 quote: Originally written by Errant: Plus writing a scenario is very hard. ... If you don't like a scenario, try to write your own. ;) That's a common and sensible argument. I understand it but I don't share it. Through various games along the time with users addon you'll find plenty very low quality addon that required hundreds of hours if not thousands. As player I have firstly a deep thanks to the author to have provide this free stuff for the game I like. I could also be impressed by the amount to time, talent, brain and sweat that it required. That won't change that if I disliked it, I could tell it. I'll try not hurt anybody and see the positive points too. But at the end what is important is the effect the addon had on me when I played it, how much fun and pleasure it involves, not how much I'm impressed by that amount of work, time spend, end so on. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Friday, April 9 2004 13:20 Profile #44 Do not triple-post. Edit if you must make an addition to an existing work. Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 13:27 Profile #45 quote: Originally written by Kelandon: ... One thing that might be nice to keep in mind, though, is that Jeff's scenarios tend to be very finishable. To use BoE as an example, just about any newbie will be able to beat VoDT, but one might have to work one's way up to playing Doom Moon II, because the thing is bloody hard. This is not to say that one is better than another, but just that it is valuable to have both. For me the global game design has a real flaw in difficulty setting design if to match difficulty whish of some hardcore players, a module need to be as difficult than you describe at any difficulty level setting. If it has this difficulty level at normal difficulty setting then how it is at nightmare difficulty setting? If it is still bloody hard and not impossible to end then game design has a problem, I mean BOE not the scenario. If it becomes impossible to end (I don't mean with a cheating overpowerfull party) at nightmare setting then the scenario design is wrong. I strongly agree with Jeff comment about that in editor doc. A good game ballance should be achieved without a too high difficulty (nor a too low). That is for normal difficulty setting. And nightmare difficulty setting should be for hardcore players that want high challenge. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 13:32 Profile #46 quote: Originally written by Imban: Do not triple-post. Edit if you must make an addition to an existing work. Wrong, appart if you want a post on 5 pages about 10 subjects. But I bet you don't want that. Hint, don't care of the author and imagine there are many different Vent :) . Or perhaps I sould suscribe more than one to make that softer ;) . I have a hint to stop me (for now) posting here, just answer my question about "Run" scenario :P . Edit :D : About making the 4 posts into one not including this one, afterall I don't care and if a forum leader want to concatanate them (those that didn't get an answer) and remove those that became useless, that's ok for me. I'll perphaps post another longuer post, please don't include it in the concatenation. [ Friday, April 09, 2004 13:42: Message edited by: Vent ] Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Friday, April 9 2004 18:49 Profile #47 The edit button feels alone and unloved. Also, there were no difficulty settings in BoE except for "Make game easier" and "Fewer wandering monsters". Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Friday, April 9 2004 22:51 Profile #48 quote: Originally written by Imban: The edit button feels alone and unloved. Lol, I won't do it because I can't delete my own messages. quote: Originally written by Imban: Also, there were no difficulty settings in BoE except for "Make game easier" and "Fewer wandering monsters". Good point, so that falls in what I mentionned, wrong game design for BoE. It seems BoA allows to the player to adjust the difficulty, if that really works that is a major improvement versus BoE. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Imban Shake Before Using Member # 75	written Saturday, April 10 2004 10:49 Profile #49 ... The difficulty setting in BoE was instead the difficulty of the scenario you elected to play for the party you brought in. If you sucked, you used a party over the recommended level. If you were godlike, you used a party below the recommended level. It was that simple. Posts: 3234 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00