Blades of Avernum Improvements

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AuthorTopic: Blades of Avernum Improvements
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Friday, October 12 2007 01:32 Profile #50
That sets each space in the rectangle to a specific height. I'm talking about raising each space by a certain amount. It's only the same thing if the area is flat, which it wasn't in my case.
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Friday, October 12 2007 10:43 Profile #51
(First of all, sorry about the double post :( An edit really didn't seem appropriate for something of this... magnitude.)

quote:
Originally written by Thralni:



- You misunderstood me - I was referring to Niemand's copy and paste terrain rectangle buttons, *...*

Ah, I see what you mean. I must say though, that I don't really see how your improvement can make it better...
I guess this is a minor thing, I just thought that it made sense to use the Edit->Copy menuitem for anything and everything related to copying (ditto with Edit->Paste).
quote:
Originally written by Thralni:


- Again, I can see your point about the boundaries button. The two wall commands and the Sticky Rectangles are already implemented in the BetterEditor - I was basically suggesting merging them into Niemand's version.

I might not understand what you are reffering too, but placing wall rectangles you can already do, no? I took a look and there is an option to place bouding walls (though it doesn't seem to work...). Was that what you meant?
Place bounding walls basically places walls around floortype #255 (254?), which is called Solid Rock or something. I was referring to the addition Khoth made to create a rectangle of walls. It's the version discussed in this thread.
quote:
Originally written by Thralni:


I don't think, though, that negavtive height values is something the game will understand, but I might be totally wrong about this...
I didn't mean negative values for height, I just meant that a raise/lower function would have to take negative values to lower the terrain rather than raise it. The negative values would be added to the current values, so the net height would not be negative.

Since my original list has been pruned so much, here's a summary of the list so far:
Get rid of the monsters and items menus and instead use the terrain palette area for this.A Raise/Lower Elevation Uniformly rectangle tool (does not replace the current Set Elevation rectangle tool).The two wall-drawing features of Khoth's BetterEditor. Plus maybe Sticky Rectangles from the same.Ability to place quickfire and movable mirrors.Display the locations of boats and horses.Allow the use of the brush tool in conjugation with the height tool.Enable the 5 on the numpad in 3D view (or at least Preview).Allow Change Floors/Terrain Randomly to also search-and-replace with specific combinations of floor and terrain.An Edit Area Description toolbar button.Highlight the active tools in the toolbar.These should be just the ideas that I posted that didn't get shot down by Thralni. The other ideas were just minor things that don't make a significant difference.
quote:
Originally written by Ishad Nha:

The Windows 3D Editor is really quite good but an attempt to compile the source code leads to a full 12 pages of errors and warnings, that is with type set at size 10. Of course there is no compilation with so many errors. Which is a pity because what BoA needs is an editor that anyone can compile if they want. I am sure that would lead to all sorts of beneficial experimentation and improvement.
So I take it the application runs but you can't compile the source? What compiler are you using? That could make a difference.
:eek: Whoa, I'm making huge posts in this thread... I hope nobody minds... :eek:

[ Friday, October 12, 2007 10:44: Message edited by: Celtic Minstrel ]
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Lazarus.
Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
 written Friday, October 12 2007 11:05 Profile Homepage #52
I give my full endorsement of the raise/lower idea.

That's all I have to say about that.

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"NOW PASS ME MY BOOTS. I HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH A FACE." -Nikki

Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot?
Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00
Ishad Nha
Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
 written Friday, October 12 2007 17:39 Profile #53
I am using Bloodshed Dev-C++. The 3D Editor works perfectly, there is no problem there.
Apparently the program was developed on a Linux platform using K-Develop, a Linux compiler. Thus there may be language problems.
Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Friday, October 12 2007 20:57 Profile Homepage #54
quote:

Originally written by Celtic Minstrel:
(Numbers added for convenience.)
1. Get rid of the monsters and items menus and instead use the terrain palette area for this.2. A Raise/Lower Elevation Uniformly rectangle tool (does not replace the current Set Elevation rectangle tool).3. The two wall-drawing features of Khoth's BetterEditor. Plus maybe Sticky Rectangles from the same.4. Ability to place quickfire and movable mirrors.5. Display the locations of boats and horses.6. Allow the use of the brush tool in conjugation with the height tool.7. Enable the 5 on the numpad in 3D view (or at least Preview).8. Allow Change Floors/Terrain Randomly to also search-and-replace with specific combinations of floor and terrain.9. An Edit Area Description toolbar button.10. Highlight the active tools in the toolbar.
I've just finished implementing 2 in the Mac Editor, it is activated by pressing shift when clicking the Set Elevation button. 10 also proved to be quick to toss in. I'm also going to take a serious look at 3, although it's been a long time since I tried BetterEditor, I recall that those features seemed pretty useful. 6 also looks like it would be useful and not too hard to do.
Numbers 4 and 5 cannot be done within the editor. As Thralni described earlier, these are set by scripts, and so the editor can't know about them.

1. would require radical changes to the current program; it would be no simple task. This would be fantastic to have, but would require a LOT of effort compared to the editing tools changes required by some of your other ideas.

7. I'll take a look at, but the program's handling of mouse/keyboard input is really weird; key events are in many cases converted into fake mouse events which are then sent to the mouse event handlers. I have no idea why, but fixing it would be a lot of work at this point. * I'm also not sure about, because I have not messed with that aspect of the program before. I'll see what it looks like.

9. Might be nice, but a bunch of work to add for little gain; I've found that I've only changed area descriptions once or twice in the years I've been using the editor.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Friday, October 12 2007 22:07 Profile Homepage #55
1 was originally the basis of the BoA Editor Re-make. Alas for its utter failure.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 04:57 Profile #56
I just tried Graphic Adjuster. It's pretty good, but when I opened one of my cmgs I got an error.
quote:
Error loading sheet 553, out of memory.
followed by
quote:
Error, the program attempted to store a port without restoring the previous one.
(This is on a cmg with 85 sheets.)
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Thralni
Master
Member # 5977
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 05:53 Profile Homepage #57
If you were not suggesting the actual placement of boats and horses, then I'm afraid I don't actually see what you mean. Because from what you just said, I understand you suggest that you place the boats by using ascript, but then the other goes looking for boats and hores and displays them in the editor itself? Isn't that like almost the same as placing them in the editor, and therefor very hard to do?

I'm interested in what you suggest, i just don't understand it. please don't get me wrong...

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 06:09 Profile #58
Yes, it might be very hard to do.

Actually placing the boats in the editor would require that the editor writes to the scenario script (unless there's some way to do it that just never got used).

Displaying the boats in the editor is basically the opposite: reading from the scenario script, searching for lines containing the relevant commands, and interpreting these commands to display the boats in the editor.

It's basically just so that you can confirm that they've been placed where you intended them to be placed. Obviously you could do this in-game as well.

There's probably no way to tell from the editor's code, but it's also possible that the editor could place boats without writing to the scenario script. That's probably not very likely though, and even if it was the case it would require experimentation that could potentially corrupt a scenario.
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 06:23 Profile Homepage #59
Minstrel, would you send me an email at neimandcw(AT)gmail(DOT)com with a compressed copy of the cmg file you had trouble with, and a description of the computer system you're using?

The issue with boats and horses is that they don't have to be created at any particular place in a script, or in any particular script, and so aren't even present in the game until the relevant bit of script runs. Exodus, for example, does this repeatedly, creating boats in t10Beach.txt, t27Riverbank.txt, t29Campdlg.txt, and t3East.txt. So you would have to read every script file in the scenario, and then the display of the boats would still not be exactly accurate.

The editor could not place boats. At all. Ever. The data structures that the editor sends to the game (in the .bas file) are known and contain no room for such data.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 07:43 Profile #60
Okay, so I guess number 5 is out. That leaves the (remote) possibility of number 4, which would only involve putting different values into an existing location.
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 08:15 Profile Homepage #61
Actually Graphic Adjuster knows the difference between item sheets and terrain/creature sheets. It just treats intro screens and other large graphics like terrain sheets, but that doesn't really matter, I think, since if for some reason you want to test adjusts on part of a large image, you can, although it serves no purpose. Also, don't forget the preview mode where an entire sheet is shown with an adjust.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 09:06 Profile #62
The evidence:
IMAGE(http://www.drunkduck.com/Celtic_Minstrel_Gallery/gfx/Picture%202.png) IMAGE(http://www.drunkduck.com/Celtic_Minstrel_Gallery/gfx/Picture%203.png)
Is there something I have to do to tell it what kind of sheet it's dealing with?
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 09:38 Profile Homepage #63
Hm, I see. According to my understanding the game only likes item graphic sheets to be one row, but maybe that's not the case. GA decides that a sheet is items if it is as tall as one item graphic, and that it's terrains otherwise. If in fact BoA allows multi-row item sheets, I'm not sure yet how I'd deal with it, since there isn't any other simple way for the program to tell the difference. I'll look into it.

BTW, you are going to email that file that wouldn't open properly, right? I would like to fix whatever caused that problem.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 11:57 Profile #64
quote:
Originally written by Niemand:

If in fact BoA allows multi-row item sheets, I'm not sure yet how I'd deal with it, since there isn't any other simple way for the program to tell the difference. I'll look into it.
The editor supports multiple row items, but I haven't tried it in the game. You would probably check that it is a multiple of the correct size.
But if it doesn't support multi-row items, I guess I'll have to split that graphic up.
Still, the program doesn't recognize the map graphics which are supported with multiple rows.
quote:
Originally written by Niemand:


BTW, you are going to email that file that wouldn't open properly, right? I would like to fix whatever caused that problem.
... I thought I emailed it. The username you gave was "neimand" - is that wrong?
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 11:59 Profile Homepage #65
*curses self for being stupid fool*
No, sorry, my address is niemand, same as my PDN here.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Ishad Nha
Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 14:22 Profile #66
As for the boats, and the horses too, check line 822 of Global.h:"boat_record_type scen_boats[30];"
this is a holdover from the BoE version of the Global.h source file. Starting at line 757 you find another holdover:

class boat_record_type {
public:
boat_record_type();
void clear_boat_record_type();

location boat_loc,boat_loc_in_sec,boat_sector;
short which_town;
Boolean exists,property;
} ;
Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 14:37 Profile #67
So, there's a class to store the data in while in the editor, but is there a place in the bas file to write the contents of said class?

I'm guessing not, but maybe...
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 16:14 Profile Homepage #68
Yes there is a boat record type, but as Minstrel points out, the problem would be where to put it in the save file. The file format is entirely binary; just objects dumped out of memory onto disk. Putting anything in there other than what the game expects will just screw it up without accomplishing anything, since we can't alter the portions of the game code responsible for loading the scenario.

Concerning my utility programs:
The new version of the 3D Editor will be waiting until I've had time to add a few more things, like list items 3,6,and 7 possibly. I also want to work a little more on commenting the code.
I've fixed Graphic Adjuster so that it now survive contact with corrupt cmg files (That's what your problem seems to have been, Minstrel) but I also want to improve its detection of sheet types before I release version 2.0.3.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00
Dahak
Infiltrator
Member # 148
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 21:27 Profile #69
While we are talking about new features, I'd like to fix a bug:

If the designer replaces the graphics for floors 11-22 or 45-56 then the code that handles drawing the edges for cave/stone or grass/dirt instead defaults to 18 (for 11-22) and 52(for 45-56) when ever you attempt to draw with dirt or any of its edges. So instead of a nice 3x3 square you instead get a 3x3 grid of corners.

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My ego is bigger than yours.
Posts: 480 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Ishad Nha
Shock Trooper
Member # 7662
 written Saturday, October 13 2007 22:55 Profile #70
As for boats, I have no idea what is in the save game files because BoA is not yet open source. Does anybody know?

As for the automatic floor terrain: there are subtleties here that I don’t get. (Source file Edfcns.cpp line 2,414 onwards may yield some answers here.) I have had a lot of problems with this in the past. BoA has way too many quirks and subtleties, scenario timers are an example of this. I have successfully done it since in the 57 thru 70 slots.

[ Saturday, October 13, 2007 22:57: Message edited by: Ishad Nha ]
Posts: 292 | Registered: Monday, November 13 2006 08:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Sunday, October 14 2007 10:44 Profile #71
quote:
Originally written by Ishad Nha:

As for boats, I have no idea what is in the save game files because BoA is not yet open source. Does anybody know?
I assume Jeff knows. :) He might even be willing to tell you. :P
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Lazarus.
Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
 written Sunday, October 14 2007 10:56 Profile Homepage #72
Multi-row item sheets aren't accepted by BoA. Actually they're half accepted-- I believe inventory graphics can be out of the range of 0-9, but floor graphics out of that range cause a crash (Or maybe the other way around.) Technically you could make the whole first row inventory and the second row floor, and so make a sheet with a full 10 item pairs, but I don't know why you'd bother.

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"NOW PASS ME MY BOOTS. I HAVE AN APPOINTMENT WITH A FACE." -Nikki

Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot?
Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00
Celtic Minstrel
Shock Trooper
Member # 10488
 written Sunday, October 14 2007 11:07 Profile #73
quote:
Originally written by Lazarus.:

Multi-row item sheets aren't accepted by BoA.
What? Seriously? That is actually very strange. :confused:
I will be able to verify this once my CD arrives. :D
quote:
Originally written by Lazarus.:

Technically you could make the whole first row inventory and the second row floor, and so make a sheet with a full 10 item pairs, but I don't know why you'd bother.
To save sheets, of course. :P There are only 1000 sheets allowed, I believe? Of course, that is quite a lot, but certain things (Monsters, Dialog pics, etc) take up a good chunk of the sheets.
Posts: 334 | Registered: Friday, September 14 2007 07:00
Niemand
Infiltrator
Member # 5576
 written Monday, October 15 2007 18:15 Profile Homepage #74
Dahak, when I get some time (maybe Friday) I'll look into that that bug.

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Überraschung des Dosenöffners!
"On guard, you musty sofa!"
Posts: 627 | Registered: Monday, March 7 2005 08:00

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