A game programmer's point of view

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Author	Topic: A game programmer's point of view
najdorf Apprentice Member # 4354	written Thursday, May 13 2004 20:50 Profile #0 Hi, I'm a hobbyist game programmer for the mac, and I started playing with the editor... ouch! pretty long stuff to write a good rpg story, even if you have the engine! I am used to writing arcade games (actually I've written only one "serious" one (shareware) and a few other unreleased) and I am noticing the big difference between writing an "algorithmical" game, such as a puzzle/simple arcade (say like tetris or bomberman)and writing a story-based game(such as an rpg), where you have to put many ideas inside (while for a puzzle/arcade you might well have only one idea). Just to put the walls for a few dungeons took me a lot of time, I don't even want to think about the rest... I think I'll give up since to make something good will take too much time, and I think I could write a simple new game from scratch instead (and try to sell it). But I think what Jeff Vogel has done with BoA is simply the programmer's dream: I write the engine (that from a programmer's point of view is more fun than writing scenarios, I can assure you) and I'll have people writing great stories for it, making this product a win-win-win game: (Jeff Vogel wins - scenario developers win (have fun - can win prize) -normal players win (have many good quality adventures). I think I'll take only the player's perspective in this case ;-) PS. I've put a nice number of hours making some good enough dungeons and outdoors: if you want them just ask. [ Thursday, May 13, 2004 21:00: Message edited by: najdorf ] Posts: 7 \| Registered: Thursday, May 6 2004 07:00
Rufo Apprentice Member # 4185	written Thursday, May 13 2004 22:47 Profile Homepage #1 I'm also a hobbyist game programmer, but I've never released any shareware games, just freeware (that's why I call myself "hobbyist" :rolleyes: ). But in fact, it was game editors that made me intrested in it. I think it all started with the one for Age of Empires, but it was the Blades of Exile editor that really made me understand how great game design really is. I truly agree with you about RPGs - they are a LOT harder to develop than arcade games. But, at a matter of fact, I think they are also much better. When the very first RPGs came, they brought the idea of telling a story in the game, which quickly spread to other genres. But telling a story with a game is (at least for me) quite harder than telling it with words or pictures. I truly admire everyone who has ever finished a RPG. As for Blades - I agree, there's a great idea behind it. I'm almost suprised that so few game developers dares to release a game and say: "Here is an engine - here is an editor - here is some good examples of what you can do with them - get started." Maybe most progammers are afraid no one would create any scenarios. But it works! And as you say, everyone gets happy in the end. -------------------- Rufo, Vahnatai Ka, Te Pinoat Posts: 30 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Crunchy Frog Warrior Member # 286	written Thursday, May 13 2004 23:09 Profile #2 quote: Maybe most progammers are afraid no one would create any scenarios. But it works! And they'd be pretty silly to think that; just look at Half-Life. That game wouldn't have sold nearly as well if not for user-created mods like Counter-Strike. People like making games, especially when the engine is already made for them. :) And yes, good RPGs are much harder to make than good arcade/board/puzzle/etc. games. Much much harder. The same applies to adventure games, in my experience. The engine isn't too hard, but the content creation can take FOREVER... Edit: Messed up my tags. Oops! [ Thursday, May 13, 2004 23:10: Message edited by: Flamefiend ] -------------------- Z: "I just feel so insignificant." Psych: "You ARE. You're an ANT." --Antz Posts: 104 \| Registered: Saturday, November 17 2001 08:00
Rufo Apprentice Member # 4185	written Friday, May 14 2004 00:16 Profile Homepage #3 Well, Half-life actually was a GAME, more than a utility, it had lots and lots of levels. No offense to the Blades of Avernum included scenarios - they are great - but as I understand it they were created to show what the engine could preform. After all, the first people who bought Half-life, and thereby made it popular, hardly thought that they bought a engine they would use for creating scenarios. Half-life didn't even include an editor (I think). The reason why people started to mod Half-life was that they liked the GAME, not only the engine. So the programmer's fear isn't silly at all - if Valve had released just the engine and some example levels, maybe Half-life wouldn't have been far as famous as it is today. What I was trying to say was that more people should do as Jeff Vogel and make a game/utility focused on the editor, not the premade game. Because, as you say, people like making games. And I do. :D -------------------- Rufo, Vahnatai Ka, Te Pinoat Posts: 30 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Midknight Warrior Warrior Member # 2711	written Friday, May 14 2004 04:03 Profile #4 Looks like Jeff has more of a commercial mind than we gave him credit for... /me thinks about starting to yell "IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY OMFGWTFBBQ!!~!~!1!!12!!" nah :P Posts: 126 \| Registered: Wednesday, February 26 2003 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Friday, May 14 2004 06:31 Profile #5 quote: Originally written by Midknight Warrior: Looks like Jeff has more of a commercial mind than we gave him credit for... /me thinks about starting to yell "IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY OMFGWTFBBQ!!~!~!1!!12!!" nah :P Well, duh. What's so unobvious about the commercial nature of Blades? The JV still gets all the money, but he doesn't need to put in nearly the effort as for a full game. (Not that I think he should stop doing it). -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
dampeoples Shock Trooper Member # 3719	written Friday, May 14 2004 09:33 Profile Homepage #6 Yes, an editor idea is a very good one, IMO. You have to make the underlying game worth it's salt too (or have it as part of a series, such as the A1-3 series, then Blades), or you'll never get anyone to make a bunch of scenarios. -------------------- fishing Posts: 294 \| Registered: Monday, November 24 2003 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, May 14 2004 09:40 Profile Homepage #7 quote: You have to make the underlying game worth it's salt too (or have it as part of a series, such as the A1-3 series, then Blades), or you'll never get anyone to make a bunch of scenarios. This is what worries me a tiny bit about Pygmalion. Still, most of the best BoE scenarios have nothing to do with the Exile setting. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, May 14 2004 11:21 Profile Homepage #8 No, but A3 shows what can be done with the engine. The programmers can take their ideas and do whatever they want. The inspiration comes more in the form of technical showcase than plot, although the plot has to be good enough to hold a player's attention. If A3 has a failure, it's in the fact that A3 doesn't nearly show the full range of BoA's capabilities, nor does E3 show BoE's. The scenarios that come with the editors are, on the whole, even worse. —Alorael, who still thinks it wouldn't be a bad idea to 'ship' BoA with the winner of the scenario contest. BoE could use an added scenario too. One of Alcritas's greats would do the trick, or Spears could be used as an example of a huge scenario with technical innovations. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Spidweb Board Administrator Member # 1	written Friday, May 14 2004 13:53 Profile Homepage #9 "The JV still gets all the money, but he doesn't need to put in nearly the effort as for a full game. (Not that I think he should stop doing it)." In all fairness, I must point out that Blades of Avernum took more work and time than a regular game. The extra work necessary to i. implement the scripting engine and make it robust enough to stand up to a decent fraction of designer desires, and ii. make everything clear enough that it's usable, and iii. document everything, was a very long, exhausting effort. Blades took more time to do than anything I've done in years, except Geneforge (which needed a whole new engine). Don't get me wrong. I'm not whining "poor me." I love my job. But please, please don't think publicly available editors are what I write when I'm slacking. There is a darn good reason why I can only pull together the energy to make one every 5 or 6 years or so. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, May 14 2004 13:57 Profile Homepage #10 Does this mean we'll have to wait until 2010 for BoG? Seriously, though, I think that statement above spells doom for a Geneforge engine-based scenario maker. Which means the question of what's next after GF3 is even more interesting now. Oh, and just a thought: the Blades games do last better than the others, don't they? I would imagine people are still buying BoE at rates that far outstrip E3 or E2. [ Friday, May 14, 2004 13:59: Message edited by: Pronounced Kel-LAN-don ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Spidweb Board Administrator Member # 1	written Friday, May 14 2004 23:26 Profile Homepage #11 "Does this mean we'll have to wait until 2010 for BoG?" Maybe not that long. We'll see how I feel in 2 or 3 years. Though I'm mostly focused right now just on making Geneforge 3 good. They're tricky games to design ... lots of factions and story paths that need to be ironed out. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, May 15 2004 01:27 Profile Homepage #12 Well, we've already seen screenshots of a 'Geneforge Campaign Editor', and the scripting language is started already. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, May 15 2004 03:17 Profile Homepage #13 Screenshots? Where? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Saturday, May 15 2004 05:34 Profile #14 quote: Originally written by Spidweb: The extra work necessary to i. implement the scripting engine and make it robust enough to stand up to a decent fraction of designer desires, and ii. make everything clear enough that it's usable, and iii. document everything, was a very long, exhausting effort. - Jeff Vogel[/QB] That's interesting. I'd assumed A1-3 used the same scripting engine as BoA, just with encrypted script files. I'd also assumed that in a series with identical/mildly tweaked engines the difficult part was in content creation, not the engine programming. Especially since it seems that four small scenarios are a lot easier to create than one huge one. Aren't they? -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
Vent Warrior Member # 4186	written Saturday, May 15 2004 14:48 Profile #15 As a quote, as a non BoE user, I bought BoA only because the demo appeal me and because there was 3 more scenario to play. I had never buy any editor only. An internal engine not exposed to the public cost a lot less than an engine like BoA. For example: - For internal use, the engine could not require scripts. That's even more true if the team is one person that do everything for A3 (instead of engine prog. team vs scenario team as in all big games). In the internal engine, a NPC script is in fact a funtion. - No need to design a script language, to design an interpreter or pseudo compiler or even a compiler (I think that was done for Quake 3). - All functions that are exposed to public use require a much more solid implementation and documentation, that's even more true when it's a one person team. - If A3 didn't required a function for scenario purpose then it wasn't done. At the oposite Jeff tried to think of very diversified functions that the authors could could want to have and that could be compatible with the engine. And so on, and so on. Posts: 175 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Sunday, May 16 2004 03:13 Profile #16 So you think that every person in Avernum had their own subprogram for behavior and dialog nodes? That's really horrid design if it's true, and makes modifying the scenario incredibly difficult. I'm pretty certain there was some kind of script language going on already. That's true, publicly available functions are probably harder to do than those that aren't, since they get used in so many imaginative ways. It may be true that functions not needed for A3 weren't in the engine, but are there really that many functions in the scripting language that weren't needed somewhere in the Avernum series? Maybe there are, but I doubt the number is very large. But that's just my look at things. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, May 16 2004 06:02 Profile Homepage #17 The scripting language comes more from Geneforge than from the Avernums, I think. The Avernum Trilogy did not include any scripts with the game, whereas Geneforge did -- and you could tell by the complex behavior of characters in the game that they had custom scripts. In Avernum, ever character used the same program, something similar to basicnpc (except with less of a pathfinding algorithm). Towns didn't have their own scripts; they probably had the same nodes as in Exile. So basically, the Avernums worked very much like Exile in terms of their programming, and BoA works a lot more like Geneforge. These are just my surmises from having played all of these games and looked around in their included files, but I'm pretty sure this is how it works. If I'm not mistaken, there are a substantial (haven't counted, but substantial) number of calls that we have for BoA that aren't equivalent to nodes Jeff used in the Avernums. [ Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:41: Message edited by: Pronounced Kel-LAN-don ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Dragongirl Shock Trooper Member # 3683	written Sunday, May 16 2004 10:36 Profile #18 Although I hope that someday I would produce a few good scenarios for either boe or boa, I am not that thrilled with bog idea at the moment. It seems GF is already complicated both plot and structure. As a user, I'd rather Jeff goes from GF3 to other game (or maybe GF4 or 5 - who says one has to stop at 3?). I got hooked through G1 and now a fan of spidweb games, so really looking forward to all new releases. :D Posts: 266 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 12 2003 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Sunday, May 16 2004 11:04 Profile #19 quote: Originally written by Pronounced Kel-LAN-don: The Avernum Trilogy did not include any scripts with the game, whereas Geneforge did -- and you could tell by the complex behavior of characters in the game that they had custom scripts. In Avernum, ever character used the same program, something similar to basicnpc (except with less of a pathfinding algorithm). Towns didn't have their own scripts; they probably had the same nodes as in Exile. So basically, the Avernums worked very much like Exile in terms of their programming, and BoA works a lot more like Geneforge. How do you know the Avernum games included no scripts? I mean, sure, there weren't any convenient text files lying around for users to edit, but I'd assume things like that would be shoved inside of some data file. And while I confess to not having played through the registered Avernums yet (just ordered the trilogy CD...yay!) there are certainly different kinds of fighting styles in the game. Though I suppose that it's possible those behaviors are actually coded in and each character is simply slapped with a behavior number. -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, May 16 2004 11:55 Profile Homepage #20 quote: How do you know the Avernum games included no scripts? I mean, sure, there weren't any convenient text files lying around for users to edit, but I'd assume things like that would be shoved inside of some data file. Because GF did have the text files just lying around. You have to go into GF Files and then Scripts to get to them, but they're there. A1-3 has nothing comparable. quote: there are certainly different kinds of fighting styles in the game As far as I could tell, the only difference in fighting styles depended on the creature's abilities. Mung Demons dumbfounded because they had the ability to dumbfound, for example, whereas Empire Archers didn't, so they didn't. I don't remember -- correct me if I'm wrong -- any significant variance that didn't depend on the monster's abilities. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
SNM Shock Trooper Member # 4239	written Sunday, May 16 2004 16:01 Profile #21 quote: Originally written by Pronounced Kel-LAN-don: *Because GF did* have the text files just lying around. You have to go into GF Files and then Scripts to get to them, but they're there. A1-3 has nothing comparable. Yeah, but Geneforge was also very open about its contents...there was even a little note about it somewhere. Avernum, on the other hand was not. By your argument Avernum clearly had no graphics files because you couldn't open up anything and see pictures. (okay, so I think there are files with 'graphics' in the name, but you get the idea). And I really don't know about different behaviors...it depends. Archers/mages have a tendency to hang back, and sometimes they run away...but then again, sometimes they don't. Whether there are 'external' scripts (ones not in the engine) or several internal ones, or just one big complex internal one, is something I really don't have the experience to decide (and frankly I don't think anyone does. There are too many possible variations on each to tell what's what.). -------------------- There are two kinds of game players...those who are newbies, and those who were. Posts: 322 \| Registered: Monday, April 12 2004 07:00**
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, May 16 2004 16:17 Profile Homepage #22 quote: By your argument Avernum clearly had no graphics files because you couldn't open up anything and see pictures. Using ResEdit, you can open up at least three files (Avernum Art, Avernum Char Graphics, and Avernum Graphics) and see pictures. quote: Archers/mages have a tendency to hang back, and sometimes they run away Again, archers and mages probably hang back because they have different abilities from fighters. You experience the same results with the basicnpc script in BoA. quote: Whether there are 'external' scripts (ones not in the engine) or several internal ones, or just one big complex internal one, is something I really don't have the experience to decide (and frankly I don't think anyone does. There are too many possible variations on each to tell what's what.). The way you could tell the difference between monsters all having the same AI and some having custom scripts is by special movement (it runs somewhere after seeing you), messaging (it calls for help), string printing ("You have been spotted!"), or special targeting (a mung demon that targets the best spellcasters and not just anyone nearby with spell abilities). I don't remember any of these in the Avernum Trilogy anywhere, but it's been a while, so if you do remember them, be sure to mention it. I'd be interested. [ Sunday, May 16, 2004 16:21: Message edited by: Pronounced Kel-LAN-don ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Rufo Apprentice Member # 4185	written Sunday, May 16 2004 22:27 Profile Homepage #23 quote: Well, we've already seen screenshots of a 'Geneforge Campaign Editor', and the scripting language is started already. quote: Screenshots? Where Yes, where?? Not at Spidweb.com, not at Drakefyre's Demesne, and I can't find them with Google. Are they confidential information or something? I'm an extremely curious person, so if I can see them, please give me the link. If I can't... well, then just explain to me why. :( -------------------- Rufo, Vahnatai Ka, Te Pinoat Posts: 30 \| Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Monday, May 17 2004 01:37 Profile Homepage #24 They were in some interview that Jeff did. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00