Enforced "goodness" -- a good thing?
Pages
- 1
- 2
| Author | Topic: Enforced "goodness" -- a good thing? |
|---|---|
|
Apprentice
Member # 3084
|
written Tuesday, June 24 2003 12:31
Profile
Here’s a question for RPG players, would-be scenario designers, and seasoned BoE designers alike: Is it acceptable or annoying when an RPG forces your character to be good? In other words: when a game outright prohibits you from killing innocent characters, destroying their property, etc., are you OK with that prohibition, or does it irritate you? Myself, I always play “chaotic good” parties … i.e., my characters dutifiully complete the saintly quests on behalf of the widows and orphans, but I’m not above swiping some rich-but-harmless fatcat’s gold when he’s not looking. :D In other words, I just don’t like the idea of playing a bad guy — but maybe that’s because few games provide interesting (and playable) repercussions/rewards for rotten behavior. Now imagine a plot that would accomodate not-so-nice (and downright evil) characters alongside the usual Robin Hood quartets. It could be very interesting. Don’t get me wrong … I don’t mean psychotic characters who go around mowing down entire towns with even less motivation than conscience. I’m talking about an entirely different set of quests and plot progression: instead of doing jobs, advancing goals, and gaining reputation with the good guys, you have the choice to do all of those things with the bad guys instead. Obviously you couldn’t just flip-flop between the two. Do enough good, and the bad guys won’t trust you; do enough evil, and you’ll either be killed or thrown in jail if you turn up at the local guard garrison. Still, by tracking the good or evil choices that the player makes during early quests, and by steering the subsequent plot accordingly, I think that some interesting (and very replayable) scenarios could result. Reactions? [ Tuesday, June 24, 2003 12:33: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Tuesday, June 24 2003 12:49
Profile
Homepage
I think that idea - which is a wonderful idea to make original games btw - is already used in several scenarios. The only one that currently comes to mind is "A small rebellion". How about having a 'Lawful Evil' alignment? Some sort of Holy Inquisitor for the Anama ;) ? Or serving some brutal totalitarian king as secret police. Personally though, being evil in an rpg is bad for my mood. I'm not above razing a town or three when I'm bored, but being evil on purpose - ie. to fill the game's objective - sounds unpleasant. -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2104
|
written Tuesday, June 24 2003 14:04
Profile
Homepage
I want a game like that. Is there? Hopefully there is, because I like doing bad things. It's bad for my self-esteem. :) -------------------- —Zxquez Zolohahni Xerch'de/Rate. Posts: 549 | Registered: Thursday, October 17 2002 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 3084
|
written Tuesday, June 24 2003 14:33
Profile
Actually, Arancaytar, I agree with you about prefering to play good characters in games. (Call me old fashioned…) I guess I was just pitching the idea to see what people thought of more morally ambiguous characters. As for content, that would certainly be up to the designer. Some level of taste should be upheld, of course: I know that I’d abandon a scenario immediately if it celebrated truly atrocious or reprehensible behavior. Mainly I was just interested in reading people’s thoughts on playing anti-heroes and/or less-than-admirable characters. Anyone else? [ Tuesday, June 24, 2003 14:48: Message edited by: Churl ] Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Tuesday, June 24 2003 14:45
Profile
Homepage
I prefer any scenario that allows the party to be evil. With Blades of Avernum, it should be relatively easy to offer the party several paths - the moral high road, going with the good guys, or even joining the "evil" side. Of Good And Evil uses "karma" to a good effect and it could be expanded on even more in BoA with reputation and other flags. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 2570
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 07:16
Profile
Well,in one of my planned scenarios,there is no forced goodnes,there is forced evil.You will have to choose will you work for the rotten Empire or the rebels who have done several *nasty* things. Concentration camps or terrorist strikes,it's all up to you... -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 73
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 08:02
Profile
quote:HAHAHA That's the plot of A Small Rebellion, which comes with BoE/BoA. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 2570
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 08:24
Profile
quote:Small Rebelion DOESN'T come with BoA,and somehow i don't believe that Small Rebelion has pervert (Great)Drakes,concentration camps,Anama fanatics,Kids/Women/Etc. getting beated up/tortured/forced to slave labor,bordellos and special spells.Jeff's scenarios are just too happy to be compared to my scenario(ideas)... Nih. >:-D (downright naughty/evil smiley) Edit Redux:And the dude who made the review of Johnny Favorite at Lyceum won't like it.Sickening. Lots of brutal sick stuff.Man,if i finish it,i think there is no game/scenario to compare it,at some aspects... :D (downright naughty smiley) [ Wednesday, June 25, 2003 08:29: Message edited by: XYZ ] -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
|
BANNED
Member # 3121
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 08:45
Profile
Homepage
Uhh, Small Rebellion is one of the four scenarios that come with BoA. Saakelin lappalaiset.. *jupinaa* -------------------- The Great Mister kommari@gmail.com[/url] Posts: 761 | Registered: Thursday, June 19 2003 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 2570
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 08:47
Profile
quote:HOLY ****!!!!How *THE* H*LL you know my last name???!!!!???!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Edit Redux:Take 3(a record.Whoop!):Oh, you were right.But it doesn't matter...I will only be blamed as sick red depraved pervert opportunist bastard.... :D :D :D EDIT: Behave now, XYZ. Masking curses is not allowed. -Schro [ Wednesday, June 25, 2003 11:19: Message edited by: Schrodinger ] -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 126
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 09:34
Profile
Homepage
Good, Evil, meh. I will likely stray away from the use of such terms in any scenario I create, and focus on differences in perspectives... Sure, you could think you're the good guy, joining the Highlord's mighty army to crush the savage rebels who seek to bring chaos and madness to the world, but the people on the business end of your sword will likely consider you a murderous tool of a power-hungry, bloody tyrant. Hmm.... OR, you could be one of those aformentioned rebels, and think that you're fighting to establish a more just and good society... Hrmmm.... Mwee-heehee, so many ideas!!! -------------------- Fly beyond the ocean, over the mountains, past the moon and across the face of the sun, never to come home again. Posts: 161 | Registered: Monday, October 8 2001 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 2570
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 10:33
Profile
quote:The Anama fanatics and a couple of other less or more crackpots of the Empire refer The Purple Faction and Magenta Mob as "evil",several "Purples" and "Magentas" refer the empire as evil and totalitaric force,and there are some other dudes that use words "good" and "evil".Otherwise,the scenario is aligmentaly "twisted".If you're Empire,is it right that Empire behaves like Natzi-Germany in the area where the scenario takes place,if you're "Purple" is it right to do terrorist strikes against civilians of the Empire?Questions,questions my friend... Edit:The Purples *are* fighting for better society than slavery under Empire,but they are using some realy *nasty* things to help their batle.Much worser than using slimes.Honestly,deducing from what VoDT was,Small Rebelion is a rebelion of biker-boy against his nondescript family compared to my scenario... [ Wednesday, June 25, 2003 10:56: Message edited by: XYZ ] -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
|
Senile Reptile
Member # 547
|
written Wednesday, June 25 2003 18:30
Profile
It really doesn't matter who's good and who's bad. I generally wouldn't want to play as a stricktly evil party, and I think the majority would want to generally do good. However, it's easy to set up situations and plot twists so that doing "the right thing" sometimes ends up doing more harm than good. The greatest asset to this strategy is talking to people - the party will generally trust somebody as long as they have no reason to distrust them. That jolly old mage who spoke of a drake that stole his staff could very well be the drake in a temporary human form, trying to lure you into his lair where he can see how people from your region taste. You could also plant false quests as diversions, although that seems to me like it would require more SDF's than I'd care to dream of. Of course, with the scripting system, who knows... -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 1823
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 10:36
Profile
Homepage
quote:On the topic of reputation, do we know whether it will be in BoA, and whether it will travel from scenario to scenario? I can't remember. -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 2570
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 10:57
Profile
quote:On the topic of reputation, do we know whether it will be in BoA, and whether it will travel from scenario to scenario? I can't remember.[/QB][/quote]It would make sense that reputation would be recalculated for every scenario,as scenarios take place in difrent places,times and even worlds. -------------------- Speed and power! Galaxies explode! And Kekkonen shall descent to punish us all! It's armageddon,it's armageddon! It's the Day of Kekkonen! "But Dirt Dragon rulz 0k.Dirt Dragon would HäX0r HAL 9000 in 10 seconds if he would get a keyboard!!!!111111YAY DITR DRAONG RULZ 0K YAY LOL OMG WTF!!!!!!11111" Join our *wonderfull* "party" at The Club of All! Join our *lovely* Cult at Dominions X! Iä, Iä my brother... Posts: 166 | Registered: Sunday, February 2 2003 08:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 3084
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 12:06
Profile
As for carrying things (stats as well as actual items) from scenario to scenario, I’ve been told that this won’t be supported in BoA. The "What are the sort of things BoA will let you do?" thread contains some ideas for possible work-arounds. (Shameless self-promotion disclaimer: I pitch the idea there, but my ideas are definitely not original. The "Take party from scenario to scenario?" and "Sequel Support" threads touch on the same ideas — but much more concisely than I did. :) ) Posts: 37 | Registered: Monday, June 9 2003 07:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 14:14
Profile
Homepage
Items can be transferred, except for those that call scripts and/or have custom graphics. However, nothing else will be transferred. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 73
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 15:54
Profile
Wait, so you mean the party's stats and levels won't be carried over? That's not good. I don't like it. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
|
Triad Mage
Member # 7
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 16:05
Profile
Homepage
Of course the stats and levels gained will be transferred -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 1016
|
written Thursday, June 26 2003 18:24
Profile
Well, I figure if a town attacks me first then I have no problem with wiping out all the hostiles since I'm only defending my self. I think something like this might happen on Bigail where you confront the inn keeper guy who stole the Nephil's chieftan charm. If your reputation isn't high enough supposedly the anama will get mad at you if you take him out. As for the scenerio with the empire fascists versus rebel anarchists I would probably join the rebels, but try to steer them away from doing anything awful like slaughtering innocent women and children. Killing women and children is a bad thing. Posts: 141 | Registered: Saturday, April 20 2002 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
|
written Friday, June 27 2003 07:21
Profile
Homepage
"Is it acceptable or annoying when an RPG forces your character to be good?" I think what I'm usually most annoyed about is that it depends on the game designer which choices are "good" and "evil" ones. On the other hand, in most RPG games you have to kill people in order to finish the game, so it's in any case a bit questionable to call the party in the game "good" rather than "evil"... Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
|
written Friday, June 27 2003 14:20
Profile
Homepage
Rpgs are about fighting. Not 100% fighting, but it's a necessary element. So just assume that killing evil persons is good in an rpg. I'm not saying it's like that in RL, but in rpgs you have to have at least some killing, or it's a bit boring. In some of the old rpg games, you had this alignment: In this compass, Good represented 'not killing people for any cause', while evil represented 'ends justify (atrocious) means'. So a good chaos guy might be a compassionate dark elf (or 'drow') who works for chaos (or a revolution etc., ie. political 'left'), but is a pacifist. An evil lawful guy would be an egoistic, uncaring person working for a totalitarian law. This shows that it's not necessary to have only lawful/good or chaotic/evil persons. Choosing between chaotic or lawful as a good character is very appealing. Being evil is sometimes, too, but after a while it gets unpleasant IMHO. [ Friday, June 27, 2003 14:23: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Friday, June 27 2003 14:29
Profile
Homepage
Remember that being evil doesn't necessarily mean you'll attract favorable attention from other evil people. There are plenty of villains in scenarios who aren't psychopathic serial killers, and a careful planner probably wouldn't want a mass-murdering undependable sidekick, no matter how loose his morals. —Alorael, who would say that a scenario that enforces goodness isn't bad as long as it adequately handles evil. The ability to kill key NPC's with no repercussions can hurt a scenario, especially if you don't know the NPC is important until it's too late. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 1016
|
written Friday, June 27 2003 15:11
Profile
quote:That's the nice thing about Avernum is that there's a reset hostile town function. I've had to use this after I made a few towns angry by defending myself. I think it was after I swiped that package in the back of the inn for some guy and set off an alarm. Posts: 141 | Registered: Saturday, April 20 2002 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 3056
|
written Sunday, June 29 2003 10:30
Profile
As a player, I try to be good, but I tend to take anything in town that's not nailed down. I just like the Idea of leaving and having people say: "There goes a group of people like you don't find much these days. They saved us just because we were in trouble, and never asked anything in return. They seemed in a bit of a hurry to leave though. Bye, the way, have you seen my shirt? It's been missing since this morning." As a designer, I'm trying to make my scenario more of a treasure hunting one. You don't have to worry about good or evil, you just hunt for treasure and a challenge. Good and evil goals are really overused, there is no need for either. Reasons for taking out an evil lord dont have to be inherently good, nor reasons for angering a town inherently evil. It's all about who likes you or wants to kill you and what they want. Of course you're always on the townspeople's side, they don't attack you on sight. I think I've made this post long enough, so I'll stop here. [ Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:46: Message edited by: ShadovvClavv ] -------------------- Curiosity killed the Nephilim. (and he hadn't saved in a while, either...) Posts: 78 | Registered: Tuesday, June 3 2003 07:00 |
Pages
- 1
- 2