Article - Why?
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Triad Mage
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written Sunday, April 4 2004 03:32
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Article - Why? For every prospective scenario designer, the most important question that they can ask themselves is 'Why?' At every step in the scenario design process, the author needs to question his/her work, the plot, and everything in-between. Answering the questions will lead to a cohesive scenario that makes sense and is fun to play. The aspects of the scenario that are most important to question are its general premise, town and dungeon design, and the environment in which the scenario takes place. All of this can be done before you even touch the editor, during the paper and pencil stage of design. The questions will help you refine your ideas and root out the bad ones. A scenario with good answers to all of the following questions will be a solid one, at least with regards to plot. Why is the party in this scenario? One of the most overused and least fulfilling answers is that they're adventurers or soldiers that heard of a mission or were dispatched to a faraway province to deal with a problem. It's always important to let the party know who they are when they enter the scenario, or somewhere in the readme or first town. The best scenarios will also take the party's identity into account when they decide how much impact on the world the party will have. A small group of soldiers will not win a war, but they can take down small fortresses, steal important items, et cetera. It's certainly possible that the party's side will still lose, despite the efforts of the party to prevent it. Why is this event, etc., taking place in this location? The actual answer to this question is not very important, as long as it's addressed. Why were the monsters attacking Valorim in Avernum 3? If they could secure a continent, they'd have a base from which they could launch subsequent attacks against the Empire. If you can justify the events taking place in the scenario without resorting to overused clichés, then you're doing a good job. A similar question is ... Why is/are the baddie(s) doing whatever it is they're doing? What's their motive? Why is the evil wizard attacking the nearby town? What can he get out of it? If the answer is simply 'because he's evil', it's back to the drawing board for you. Using a hackneyed plot and motive will almost guarantee a lot of negative feedback from players. Among the other overused justifications is 'he was possessed by demons' (but why do the demons want to attack the town? Just because they're demons?). When you're creating a justification, keep it realistic and make sure that you take into account the party's importance. Would a group of novice adventurers be able to take on the Impenetrable Lair of Lord Evilmancy? Try to create a baddie with the same power, or a little more, than the party, especially if it's out in some remote location. Why does your scenario have wandering monsters? Most areas of the Empire have eliminated all nonhumans completely, and the Empire will not tolerate banditry. Valleys are some of the most dangerous places to be in Blades of Exile, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why does the party win? What does the party have or do to overcome the baddies and win the scenario? All of this should be planned out beforehand, and it should all make sense. If a powerful wizard helps you break into the Impenetrable Lair of Lord Evilmancy, why are you needed in the first place? Couldn't he just take on Lord Evilmancy himself? If Lord Evilmancy knows the mark of his magic, why would the wizard hire you? Surely there are better and more experienced adventurers out there. You need to come up with an idea of progression through the scenario so that each step along the road to victory holds water. Why is this particular town/dungeon here? What does every town and every dungeon add to the plot or atmosphere of the scenario? If your scenario takes place in a remote mining town, there should be mines, ore storage rooms, miner barracks, ledgers and records, and so on. How does each town make money and survive? Also, is the town included in the scenario for a reason, or does it just exist to hold people and make the world bigger? Dungeons should be subject to the same scrutiny. Why is there a lair of ogres in the middle of Province XYZ? Does it make sense? Does it add to the plot? Why are there goblins and sliths in the same dungeon? If you can refine your town and dungeon ideas before you start writing your scenario, you'll have a much better chance of finishing, especially with BoA's town and outdoors editor. ==== As a player, if every scenario answered these questions well, I'd be extremely happy. As a designer, I've tried to think through my scenario ideas with an extremely critical player or beta-tester in mind. The closer everything is scrutinized, the better off the final product will be. Just diving in with a loose idea of a plot is something that may be good for getting experience with the editor, but when you finish (if you finish), it's very unlikely that you'll come out with something good. -- Drakefyre -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Sunday, April 4 2004 07:56
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Good points, all. Even though I usually try to think everything out, I'll probably consult this a lot. -------------------- -Newtfeet Posts: 151 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
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written Monday, April 5 2004 12:49
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Another excellent article. When I am stuck designing an area or making the plot of a game, I always find ideas by returning to basics. "Who is here? What do they want? How are they going about getting it? Where do they live? What do they do from day to day?" In answering these questions, I always get ideas. I would only warn people not to let the tail wag the dog. Most people play Blades to beat up monsters and get phat lewtz. You need to come up with a reason why the Evil Monsters are in such and such an area, but don't feel the need to come up with something completely rational and bulletproof. My all purpose excuse is the "Area on the edge of the Empire." It is better to have lots of fun and action in an irrational setting than a scrupulously designed and plotted storyline that is on the dull side. Heck, the Roman Empire controlled more of the civilized world more totally than practically any empire ever, and there were still plenty of wild areas far from the core that needed the occasional pacifying. But Drakefyre is still 100% right here. Plotting and asying "Why?" are a marvelous tool and an opportunity. Thinking along the lines above will make designing a good scenario much easier. - Jeff -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
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written Monday, April 5 2004 13:28
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quote:I'd disagree with that, and so would many Blades-players. For example, your scenario that is more plot-strong (A Small Rebellion) has fared well on The Lyceum's Comprehensive Scenario Reviews: http://pub26.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm27.showMessage?topicID=29.topic While simultaneously, Za-Khazi run let the dog wag the tail clear off of its butt and suffered extraordinarily for it: http://pub26.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm27.showMessage?topicID=30.topic Za-Khazi failed horribly because it existed only for hacking up monsters and picking up loot. You'll see that most of the comments are fairly constant in their criticisms. The purpose of Blades is to tell a story FIRST and make a fun game to play SECOND- that's why scenarios such as Election, Corporeus, Chains and Quintessence are rated highly whereas scenarios such as Grey Moon: Hand of Darkness, Spy's Quest, and virtually every scenario by Brave Sir Robin are rated significantly lower. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Monday, April 5 2004 13:43
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quote:Yes, I need help, but I almost burst out laughing here. Seriously though, I probably would rather have a scenario with no combat then one with no plot. Though I would rather have a mix of both. -------------------- -Newtfeet Posts: 151 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:05
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I think one can see the best and worst of Jeff's scenario design technique in his comments. I agree with TM that Blades is not mostly about beating up monsters but mostly about telling/reading/RPing a story. quote:Erm, but this kind of misses the point. The point is that the fun and action (particularly in BoA even more than in BoE, but in both) can be from the dialogs and the animations as well as the combat. One need not tear through a dungeon of Haakai with a Flaming Runed Black Halberd of Death to be having fun. As I said on the Lyceum, I would've loved to see a longer cut scene in ASR on Zaskiva, because explosions and madness and people fighting and running all over the place are quite fun as animation, and they certainly pump up the tension in a way that a combat between a level one party and a vampire (or any other challenging combat) does not. One should not misread me, though: this exact combat is used to good effect in TM's scenario (w00t we have a fifth BoA scenario w0000t!), but it is not the *only* way of adding tension. And many kinds of tension are good. I think the goal is balance, but the bottom line is plot. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Board Administrator
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:07
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"The purpose of Blades is to tell a story FIRST and make a fun game to play SECOND" Heh. This quote is going up on my wall. The idea that anyone writing a game would purposefully put fun second is, I admit, alien to me. You will have to remember that any advice I give is tinted by the community I write for. Consider Geneforge. That game has as elaborate and detailed a plot as anything I have ever done. But a huge portion of the player base is mainly excited by the ability to have a bunch of pet dinosaurs and burn everything to the ground. That is why I was very careful to make sure that the plot does not get overmuch in the way of the people who have no interest in it. It's been quite a success. Or, to put it another way, a considerably part of my income comes from parents on behalf of their eight year olds. Sometimes, I get ideas for really plot heavy, intricate story games. I tend to discard them, as writing too many games like that would cause me to end up losing my house. And, while ratings of scenarios are interesting, it is important to remember what any statistician can tell you: self-selecting samples are invalid. The people most likely to enjoy carnage-rich scenarios are arguably the people least likely to get into message board discussions about them. But one person's opinion (mine or yours) won't make any difference. Just write what you want to play, and then hope that the audience is there. - Jeff -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:14
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I think that what this discussion will inevitably turn into is the debate over whether scenarios can be constituted as 'art'. Does an artist paint for the money and for the public, or does the artist paint to tell a story, express his/her self, etc.? Scenario design is fundamentally different from complete game design. You've already succeeded in making Blades of Avernum a fun game to play - and telling the stories is not really your job. Part of the appeal of BoA is the opportunity to play through a variety of stories from various designers, most of which are shorter than the average game. You've fulfilled the 'fun' requirement already, and it's up to the independent designers to add the story component. There are Blades of Exile scenarios where plot and story get in the way of enjoyment. Several of TM's earlier scenarios and Alcritas' later scenarios (Falling Stars and Lamentations particularly for me) suffer from just that problem. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Babelicious
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:20
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Further evidence that Jeff Vogel doesn't have any idea what the Blades audience is. Blades scenario designers are, by and large, interested in telling a story. I can't remember the last successful combat/adventure scenario; I know a number of BoE players (including myself) who maintain a different party for each scenario level. BoE has largely moved to "smaller, more focused, intricate plots" as opposed to the Exile "big unfocused world with a lot of fighting" concept. If you haven't noticed, Vogel, most Blades designers and players aren't 8 years old. It's a different community with different goals. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:27
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Mr. Vogel, your comment (read 'Ha ha, you ignorant fool, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about because I designed these games!') was directed towards one of the most prolific and widely-played Blades designers in the community. I'd like to point out that Blades would have sold horribly had it not been for the scenario designer community. They are paying customers, but that's less important than the fact that they are not A but THE draw to your product. No one will buy BoA for sheer hack-n-slash action; they'll say 'this is buggy, unreliable, short crap' and stick to the series Avernums. No one is going to buy two copies of Avernum 3 to make up for lack of sales draw on BoA's part. If I were you, I would make strides to alienate your designer community a LOT less -- there's a HUGE amount of discontent with your attitude among the best designers and they do NOT grow on trees. [ Monday, April 05, 2004 15:28: Message edited by: Nemo Custer Impune Lacessit ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:31
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"Further evidence that Jeff Vogel doesn't have any idea what the Blades audience is." The Blades audience is people who sent me a credit card number. :) Look. The only really good way to write a really good scenario is to write what you want to play. If you are only comfortable writing plot-heavy stuff, rock on. The only point I am making (and I feel it is a very mild point and I'm on pretty safe ground making it) is that a large portion of your potential Blades-playing audience mainly gets off on hitting things. Trust me. I read their fan mail. That's all I have to way on the age-old Plot Versus Carnage rpg debate. Back to porting. - Jeff -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:36
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You're reading fan mail from nonmodular games, though; the best scenarios according to that market (so far as I am aware, it is nigh-on impossible to pirate BoE or get scenarios to work outside of a registered version, so I can assert with some confidence that most people who have opinions on scenarios have, in fact, paid you for it) are the ones with the best plot. The scenario experience is too short and shallow to allow a great depth of combat action. Ivory makes beautiful sculptures, but it takes an idiot to try and make a wall out of it. [ Monday, April 05, 2004 15:36: Message edited by: Nemo Custer Impune Lacessit ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:39
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Surprisingly enough, I'm going to have to agree with Vogel here. Sure, I respect the stories of some of the more plot-heavy scenarios, but I always played Blades of Exile primarily to have fun rampaging around the landscape and doing More Or Less Good. This is why Doom Moon II is probably my favorite scenario of all time. While it most certainly had a plot, in fact, quite an interesting and unusual plot at times, no one really played Doom Moon II for the story of the dragons' revenge upon the kingdom for the death of one of their kind. Heck, most of the plot twists could have been seen coming from miles away. What made Doom Moon II one of the best scenarios was simply that it was a great combat/adventure game. You were always on the edge of your seat wondering what in the devil you were going to go up against next. Would it be hordes of Slith Archmagi and Archpriests? Would it be Margoyles, with 10d10 attacks and acidic spit? Or would it be one of the mighty dragons, with thousands of hit points and horrifically powerful special spells? That's what you played Doom Moon II for - the fun of taking on whatever was thrown at you, barely surviving, and charging on, ready for more. I guess what I'm trying to say is that designers have to remember that they're making a game, not a novel. While a good plot can certainly make a scenario more enjoyable, challenging, fast-paced, fun, and unpredictable gameplay goes so much further. (As a corollary, I have to typically agree with Drakefyre on pointless battles. Repeated, unavoidable fights of the Napoleonic Wars style can quickly kill the pacing and fun of any scenario. If you're going to give us stuff to pointlessly massacre, at least have a heart and make the battles as quick as possible.) Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:39
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Actually, I will add this. "If I were you, I would make strides to alienate your designer community a LOT less -- there's a HUGE amount of discontent with your attitude among the best designers and they do NOT grow on trees." Hrmm. Looking back at my posts, it strikes me that my disagreements are very mild and I was very complimentary of Drakefyre's post ("excellent article" were the words I used). I do not see what I have said in this thread to justify anger, alienation, or any reaction more strong than "Hmm. I disagree with his opinion. Oh well." Don't be so mad at me all the time. I'm just a guy sitting in his basement. You'd like me if you met me. :) -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:39
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Geneforge was the first Spiderweb game I saw, and it's plot is the reason I purchased it. I wanted to see how the story progressed. If I hadn't liked Geneforge's story I wouldn't have bothered to purchase it or any of Spiderweb's other games (and I have all of them except BOA - waiting for the Windows release). If I just wanted hack'n'slash I could go down to the local recycled computer game store - they have plenty of second-hand hack'n'slash games available there at cheap prices. For me, the fun of RPGs is in the story. It's not a case of story first, fun second - it's that if the story sucks then I probably won't find it a whole lot of fun. This is why my favourite Exile/Avernum game is E2/A2, and why I liked GF better than GF2. There is a crucial difference between Blades and Spiderweb's other games. I've only played a few BOE scenarios, but I can see that after you've played a dozen or so scenarios on the same engine, combat would quickly become repetitive and boring, and you're looking for something that distinguishes each scenario from the other ones you've played. This is the reason why story-telling is crucial in Blades scenarios, far more so than in Spiderweb's other games. -------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:47
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My primary reason for playing a scenario is not necessarily to kill things - but it is to have a good time. That can be delivered by something like Quintessence, which combines a good story with humor and intriguing combat, or something like Echoes: Pawns, which is just watching action unfold. Scenarios like Lamentations, Signs and Portens, and even the Election are all scenarios that exist for story and have forgotten about fun. My ratings for them are much less than scenarios of similar size with a lesser story but a greater 'fun factor'. The main point is that a scenario needs to be fun and gripping, and it can do that with a story, with combat, or with a combination of both. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Babelicious
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:47
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Some of us haven't forgiven you for abandoning Blades of Exile, Vogel. Obsolete or not, I want to see BoA succeed and have much better support from the company than its predecessor. I don't want the next Alcritas to be so jaded as to never even start making scenarios. You can't treat this community like it's full of 8-year-olds. It consists mostly of adults. If you want to ignore the people who make your game worth buying, that's your risk. -------------------- I've got a pyg in a poke. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
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written Monday, April 5 2004 15:48
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I suppose you're right. You absolutely need a plot to justify that you're going out to destroy things, but when I come to an ogre cave in the road, I don't ask why it's there unless, after clearing it, I thought it was boring. (EDIT : This was aimed at Kyna.) [ Monday, April 05, 2004 15:49: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
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written Monday, April 5 2004 16:08
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I rather agree with Jeff here. Hey, I like stories as much as the next guy; I spend probably ten times as much time reading novels as I do playing computer games. But when I want a novel, I read a novel. When caught up in a great plot, turning a page to get to the next scene takes a lot less time than maneuvering through a dark maze or sneaking into the rebel fort. Although scenarios should certainly have plots to help the player figure out what to do next, the plot is not the main thing. If I'm playing a computer game, I'm interested in strategy: give me puzzles to figure out how to pass, tough battles to figure out how to win, and decisions about how to improve my party so they'll win future battles as well. My favorite of the built-in BoA scenarios is not ASR, but DwtD: there's great stuff for sale, but getting the fancy armor or the excellent weapon will come at the expense of learning top-level spells, or of acquiring knowledge brews and training from the countryside. And nothing beats the fun of finding the Black Dress of Speed and then realizing that my character will have almost no armor while wearing it. I also agree with Jeff that everyone should make the kinds of scenarios he likes; that way there will be something for everybody. For me, drop me in a detailed world with choices to make and tasks to do (real tasks, not boring courier missions with no combat that just waste time in between telling the story), and I don't really care if there's anything tying it all together or not. My characters are adventurers. They explore for exploration's sake (and the loot, of course), not because such-and-such threatens the destruction of so-and-so. Posts: 33 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Monday, April 5 2004 16:09
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quote:While hoping I can avoid adding fuel to a smouldering fire, I have to say I completely agree with that statement. In a CRPG, story is a vehicle and gameplay is the driver. While most people would prefer to ride in style in a luxury vehicle, just sitting in one that isn't going anywhere isn't overly enjoyable--or at least not for long. :) "Story" seems to be the Holy Grail that has replaced "realism" in what hardcore fanatics ask for these days. Don't get me wrong, both are Good Things(TM) and need to be there--but both also need to take a back seat to fun when they get in its way. As I'm sure someone will see fit to question my credentials for making such a statement, I'll say I spent many a year doing professional game design. I'm retired now (for health reasons), but the principals remain unchanging. I've read the reviews of Jeff's scenarios, and have to respectfully disagree with many of the negative comments. Are his scenarios perfect? Far from it. Could they have better stories? Most likely. But story served its purpose in them, to me at least. It kept me interested enough to play the scenarios through to the end (and I assure you there are many, many CRPGs I can't say that for)--and have fun by doing so. That's what games are all about. :) -spyderbytes -------------------- -spyderbytes Posts: 200 | Registered: Wednesday, March 31 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Monday, April 5 2004 16:22
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The only Blades of Avernum scenarios that managed to attract my attention to the end were VoDT and ASR, and I'd already played them in Blades of Exile. Playability and the ever-elusive fun factor are the main reason, but the interesting story is also a large part of why I liked the scenarios. Those scenarios are not a good example of strategic combat except for the Stalker fight, but they were fun and kept me entertained until the end, which I can't really say for a lot of Blades of Exile scenarios (again, one of my major problems with the Adventurer's Club series). -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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BoE Posse
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written Monday, April 5 2004 16:32
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I actually wrote an article on this subject at the Lyceum, but that website it currently in the process of being restored after a server crash, so it's not back up yet. Combat CAN be fun in Blades, but usually isn't. Why? Because we've all played 100 or so scenarios and know the engine inside-out, back-to-front, and upside-down. In short, STANDARD combat is very boring in Blades. Just put a couple of mosters there to fight? That's boring, because we've done it two million times (give or take a thousand) before. In Geneforge, the fun of making monsters and seeing what they can do is great. I'm not gonna argue with that. You're excited when you find a new canister. In Geneforge 2, it's still fun, because you CHANGE the ENGINE. New spells, new creations, new skills. But imagine if you hadn't done that. Geneforge 2 wouldn't be so fun. Now imagine playing Geneforge 50, with the same engine. The story can be the best of the series, but that combat would be so excruciatingly dull. See why we put so much emphasis on plots? See why we groan when you say "Be sure to put in loads of combat!"? However, some scenarios HAVE broken this kind of pattern. By breaking the limits of BoE and doing things that were never planned by yourself. Doom Moon II gave us NPCs that could join us. Ooh, interesting. It gave new spells to the monsters we fought, and better yet, gave them to us too. On A Ship to Algiers broke the pattern by making the party lose their memory. You're on an island, you can't remember why... and you can't remember how to fight. Suddenly those puny goblins aren't so puny. We're interested, because we're fighting in ways we haven't done before - no magic, just big sticks and stones. But really, how many times can we find a new way to make the player fight? It's either innovate, innovate, innovate within a limited engine or minimise combat and focus on story. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
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written Monday, April 5 2004 17:27
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quote:You're assuming that fun and story are not synonymous- Perhaps in my initial post, I partitioned the two off unfairly. I like a good story, and have fun playing through it. Redemption has a spiraling-downward, head trip into doomsday narrative. It was one of the first ten (IIRC) scenarios I played, and my standards haven't been higher since. Johnny Favourite (admittedly, a warning in advance: Play this one at 1 am in the morning or later, no sooner) is nothing but a movie roughly transposed into Blades of Exile. There's no action, no real puzzles, except for perhaps figuring out how to get a different ending. I liked playing it, and it even stands on your Solid Adventure's table with a 4.3 Also on your Solid Adventure's table (4.6) is Chains, a scenario with almost no combat except for some menial fights against weak undead- it's story driven with a few quirky puzzles attached, nothing more. To Live in Fear has a 4.1 on your tables. It's a movie scenario: The player does nothing, and yet by what the movie does alone, it's regarded as solid. (Two other movies have also scored Election, a scenario based only on a well-built pretense and a poor cameo of "Mayor Vogel" ( ;) ) has a 4.5 in spite of its utter lack of combat. Other scenarios- namely virtually everything by Alcritas, Quint, and many others- contain fair ammounts of combat, but are also story-driven. Redemption, as I have stated earlier, is one of the most story-driven scenarios (even if it uses a Nintendo-esque style for combat :) ). My point is thus- Of course you have plenty of people who are eight year olds looking to hack things up. Let them play Za-Khazi. Or better yet, let them play At the Gallows by Stareye, also known as "Exile IV". The eight year olds who like swinging around their Ultra Mega Power-Rangers Demonslayer +50 to save busty damsels from big bad Haakais laden with phallic horns and spikes will always be there. They're easy to please, and couldn't tell the difference between Marvel Comics and The Things They Carried. (They're also the ones that litter your First Efforts table- go figure.) You give this demographic as much attention as it needs, but merely on an idealogical basis seem to neglect the more mature consumers who buy the buckets of fast food that get dumped into your cage each night. :P Marketing BoA as a medium to kill demons is well and good, and I'm not saying you should stop. I'm just saying that you and potential designers (ie. the ones who go about designing rooms full of alien beasts led by ultra haakais and the like) should also keep in mind that the parents who buy these games for their eight your olds might just be playing these games for themselves as well. PS- Za-Khazi as the third "pre-packaged" scenario for BoE was a horrible move in general. What better way to turn off the more "mature" players (who will make up your designing base, believe it or not)? PPS- http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001356 -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, April 5 2004 17:27
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I started this post at about 5:15, so the topic has somewhat outpaced me. Apologies for that. But, here goes: From the scenario criticism thread, quote:Jeff's writing games for people who've never played any of his games before, NOT for his hardcore audience. This is not a bad idea to do for shareware, but can be not the greatest thing among the Blades community, where everyone who's played Emulations has also played At the Gallows and Spears and Spy's Quest, for example. And Djur's right: of the respected scenario designers, who also tend to be the leaders of the community as the most known names and the mods of various boards and such, almost none are younger than 20. And absolutely none are younger than 15. Of our best scenario designers (those who've placed top three in more than one design contest, those who have at least one scenario rated above 9 on the Lyceum's CSR), we have a lawyer (Alcritas), a teacher at a university (Brett Bixler), and a physics grad student (*i). I'm not sure how old Drizzt is, or the Creator either, but I'm willing to guess that they're not eight. Okay, I just read Jeff's last post, and this is going to be a MUCH, MUCH longer post than I thought it would be. Sigh. I was going to try to make the point that the audience that loves and eats up Jeff's other games is not the audience that he drew for Blades (both oE and oA). I was further going to try to say that he probably just didn't know what made up a good BoE scenario because he did what he always does with games when he wrote BoE: he finished it and moved on. This has always been a fine method for other games; no reason to keep mucking up E1 or E2 many years later, right? But BoE was fundamentally a different game, and this led to a misunderstanding that has caused many hurt feelings. Well. Jeff. I've been investigating the history of the SW community (yes, the Spiderweb community, and such a thing *does* exist) for a little while now. I admit that I haven't been around all that long, but I've talked to people who have, and I've read almost all of the old discussions in existence, so please, bear with me. Everyone who's reading this, give it a chance. I have realized that while we are a very disparate group (some of my favorite members of the community are from Louisiana, Finland, England, Pennsylvania, Oregon, Canada, and so on), we do share certain things in common. We are a sensitive bunch. Look in the General forum and read the topic entitled Suicide. Then note that near it is another topic with a very similar name. Both have aroused considerable passions. Then look at the third page, at the topic entitled Board Member Info (a Science Experiment), and look at the discussion we had there. Then look at the next two consecutive topics. Are you starting to realize the depth of passions in this community? We care about things very intensely. On the Lyceum, you can even find community reactions to 9/11 on 9/11: God Help Us. This is a community that has existed in various forms for ten years; ask Thuryl or Alec or others who are still around from the AOL days about what they remember. I have, and it's pretty amazing. People talk about Aceron's Malkeera as if it existed yesterday. People are still in touch with Zaloopa. I talked with Akhronath not long ago about his days running the Arena. What I'm trying to say here that is that there is a Spiderweb community, and we have a history, and we come together on the forums devoted to these games and we talk, we make friends, we hang out. There is more at stake here than just 8-year-olds wanting to kill stuff. What Alcritas, *i, Brett Bixler, TM, Drizzt, the Creator, Shyguy, Ben Frank, Akhronath, Measle, Tarl Kudrick, Ryan Phelps, Andres Gonzales, and many others have done here is turn scenario design into a legitimate art form. That's why your somewhat disingenuous remarks have offended people. You appear to be sticking your tongue out at all of us. Your rather acerbic sense of humor, which is appreciated in many, many contexts, is not ideal here. TM was being completely serious, and he's made enough scenarios and reviewed enough scenarios that he usually gets a fair amount of respect around here. Your response? quote:You then go on to make your 8-year-old comment, which seems (at best) to make light of his remarks, or (at worst) to insult the entire community as a whole. I think that was not what you intended, but it is what you said. You go on to further the same mistake by saying, quote:Do you know what the people on these boards do when those portions of your audience show up here? Read the Poetry thread, starting with FatBatMonkey's post halfway down. Thus: the people you are addressing on these boards are NOT the same people as wrote to you, "LOL I LUV GENEFORGE!!!! BUT PUT IN MORE BLOWING THIGNS UP." (Thank you to Djur for putting it so eloquently.) You were speaking to the wrong audience here, and some of us took offense at your generalizations. Also, as you have said, "For all I know, my games only ever sell to septugenerian eskimos" (in an interview). And, as you said, "it is important to remember what any statistician can tell you: self-selecting samples are invalid." Thus, those who write you fan mail are not a perfect sample of those to whom your games sell. You can't have it both ways. The Lyceum's CSR is of at least equal value to the fan mail that you receive. There is a difference, though: those who post on the Lyceum are far more likely to be hardcore fans who will buy every game that you release from now on, the ones who bought BoA on the first day it came out and who will buy Geneforge 3 the first day it comes out. Those who write you fan mail are more likely to grow up and stop buying your games. So it's a far bigger loss if you alienate your hardcore fans such as you find on these boards and on the Lyceum. Take some time to get to know us. You might realize that there are a *lot* of us who are not 8-year-olds who only want to destroy things. But aside from all of this, there's a point that should be more dear to your heart: these boards also influence which products your customers buy, and whether they buy them at all. Don't believe me? Look at the Spiderweb Newbie Looking to Find a Good RPG to Begin With thread. He asked us what was good. We told him... well, would you care to guess? We told him that BoE was the one to get. TM, Thuryl, Boots, Drakefyre, BtI, Alorael, and the Creator all said something along these lines. If anyone said to buy anything else, it was always in the context of that game and BoE. Nethergate and BoE. E2 and BoE. E3 and BoE. And why do we love BoE so much? As the Creator so beautifully put it, quote:BoE is loved because of the scenarios that others have made for it. And thus BoE was the only Exile that I bought. And thus BoE will continue to be purchased for years to come. Why? Because of Alcritas. Because of *i. Because of Brett Bixler. Because of TM. And so on. So the designers of the community are an integral part of your money source. Were BoE copies still being bought in 2002, years after the game was released? If they were, it's because of the designers. I'm not sure that you care about us, the community, but I do know that you care about your pocketbook. Thus it might be wise to avoid telling your designers that all people who play Spiderweb games are children who like to bonk things on the head. P.S. I am not saying that you should stop making games with cool combat. That would be ridiculous. I'm saying you should ease off on the condescension just a wee bit. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, April 5 2004 17:56
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I think the arguments here are missing something. Nobody sets out to create a boring scenario. Everyone wants it to be fun so that others will enjoy the story they have to tell, whether it's combat-intensive or combat-free. The differences come from what constitutes fun. There is something exciting about finding new phat lewt. If there weren't, games like Diablo would not rake in money. At the same time, BoE/A doesn't lend itself to long, mindless combat sequences. The medium is great for telling a story, though, and consequently the best BoE scenarios are story-driven. Some use combat well, especially complicated combat with special spells, added handicaps and oddities, and the like. Some use combat where it is appropriate to the story. But the story is the point. It doesn't necessarily need to be an elaborate plot. Look at books and movies. The best book plots are often not action-packed thrillers. Movies thrive much better with that genre. The media are different, and they work best with different material. BoA is no exception; it's not so much the story you tell, but how your plot meshes with the engine. A great scenario should have combat, but it should have well-planned combat that adds instead of just existing. Phat lewt is good, but only when phat lewt is called for. So maybe that's what you should add to Drakey's "Why?" Why would a player want to do this? How is this fun? Does the plot hinder or help the scenario at this point? How about the combat? The treasure? Designers want to design scenarios that they envision, but they should keep in mind the medium through which they are expressing their ideas and the audience they're aiming for. There's nothing sadder than a scenario with no audience. —Alorael, who has just rambled somewhat incoherently. Apologies for that. To all who are too lazy to read the above, the gist of it is "Combat is good. Plot is good. Understanding BoA so you can blend both seamlessly and entertainingly is best." Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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