Exodus Progress
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 13:08
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Some people indicated that they'd be interested in hearing about the progress that I've made on Exodus, the sequel to Bahssikava. Well, here it is. I first mentioned Exodus in the contest results thread. Basically, Bahs is the section of the journey through the parts of the slith lands that the Bahssikavans have touched, from upper Bahssikava itself out to Vasskolis, the deepest the Bahssikavans have gone into the homeland. Exodus is the long, river journey from Vasskolis to the borders of the current-day homeland slith empire (or what remains of it). Exodus has (in the plan right now) 53 towns and 30 outdoor sections. The outdoors is pretty much done. About 35 of the towns have been drawn, and about 25 of them are more or less complete (with a little bit left to do). I've gotten into a pretty good groove, and I know exactly what needs to be done most of the way from here, so the rest of it should come faster than the previous bit. Some things to look forward to: * More character development! I've promised that Phaedra's feminine side will shine through in this scenario, and it will. But each of the major characters of Bahssikava (Legare, Kass, Pithoss, Ethass, Talas, Silthokh, Ithik, Phaedra, Machrone) will have more stage-time and more lines. * Special spells! The party is something like level 50 or 60 to start out the scenario, so I've imagined a set of spells continuing upward for another 20 or 30 levels. * A conlang for the sliths! I've already alluded to this on the boards, and I have created a full-blown language for the homeland sliths, complete with a linguistic history and literary background. The Khalthanad, the epic poem of the homeland sliths, will play prominently in Exodus. In sum: the planning aspect is about 90% done, and the actual work of making the first version is about 50% done. After that, I'll do a (hopefully brief) round of alpha testing, and then I'll ask folks around here to do a couple of rounds of beta. No idea when all that will be, yet — it will depend a lot on the progress I make over the next two weeks before school starts again. But anyway, I just wanted to let people know that I am still working on this scenario. [ Tuesday, January 03, 2006 13:09: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 13:15
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Wow. I enjoyed the first one immensely (I think I posted a topic to that effect already), and I'm looking forward to this one far more than Avernum 4. Concerning Slithzerikai language, Alec came up with some basic ideas on "Slithzerikaiis". Will you publish a complete vocabulary of your language, along with a few grammar rules? The encyclopedia is hungry... :) -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 13:19
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Can't wait to see the final product... though I sincerely hope to see fewer undead in this one. And it's good to see that this one will have outdoors. While interesting, the all-town nature of Bahss lowered the quality just a bit. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 13:28
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I'd disagree with that last bit. While the lack of outdoors eventually made me a bit claustrophobic ("when can I finally leave?" "where's the exit?" "I want OUT!"), it was a bit of a novelty. I had to adjust my strategy - normally I walk around in the wilderness until I'm healed; here, healing and energy potions actually had a use outside of combat. In retrospect it seems a bit Geneforge-ish, but that didn't hurt the quality I think. -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 14:12
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Aran: I've debated when and how I'm going to make available the grammar and vocabulary of the language. I'm still working on the finer points of it, but when I get a chance (probably during beta testing), I could put up something. My general feeling has been that the language found in Avernum is a heavily barbarized version of the one in the homeland, and the sliths of Gnass introduced some reforms that brought in significant neologisms, which is sort of my way of removing my language from anything that anyone else has ever made. Ephesos: Fewer undead, yes. There are a few undead creatures that get summoned — and one major fight with a lot of undead — but not nearly as much as in Bahs. Likewise, there aren't many demons (two major places for those that I can think of). Most of the enemies in Exodus are organic in nature. Some reptilian, some not. I like Bahs for what it is, but I have no desire to do the same thing again. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 16:18
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I enjoyed Bahssikava and look forward to your new scenario. My only hope is that you learned something from earlier criticism and will exclude large battles, like those that detracted from Bahssikava. Edit: If you'd like and or need, I could work on custom graphics for you when I find the time and patience. [ Tuesday, January 03, 2006 16:31: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 16:56
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quote:None of the criticism of Bahs that I remember involved "large" battles. It's been criticized and praised for the same things so many times that it's hard for me to keep straight what people have said. But I am trying to make combat substantially different. The special spells are a big part of that. EDIT: You know, there's one custom graphic that I could use: a two-high bonfire, like the normal bonfire but with flames that go up much higher. [ Tuesday, January 03, 2006 16:59: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 17:14
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By "large" battles, I meant the one with that Demon Overlord where there were so many monsters and spellcasters that I had to turn the sound off just to play the game. I enjoyed the others. I'm working on that fire now. Edit: Sent [ Tuesday, January 03, 2006 17:37: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 17:39
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quote:Going in order through CSR: "On the other hand, the final fight can be a bit mundane, and the fight against Nolagh-Khar is outright boring." -- Yours Truly "There could have been more strategy added to the fights-- spellcasters and terrain." -- Toast "As you finally get to Mount Garthax, the whole scenario becomes, effectively, a giant hack and slash." -- Dastal "Unfortunately, as TM says, the altar fight occurs early, and from then on (the chitraches, who present a nifty little problem, apart) it's one round of "wait outside the door, power up and charge in on the unsuspecting [insert creature names here]" after another after another after another: combat with potted-plant baddies." -- Boots "As regards combat, with the exception of a couple of fights (notably the very interesting Tunnels sequence near the start, and the reasonably interesting and highly strenuous final battle), challenge is fairly consistent in both type and difficulty. On one hand, this means a party capable of winning one fight won't find themselves utterly stymied by the next. On the other hand, this also means there's a certain sameness to the combat after a while." -- Thuryl "The rest of the fights pretty much followed this pattern: shoot an arrow at one of the baddies, then retreat to a safer location, kill the one baddie, repeat." -- Smoo "Well, it is Vogel-style in one way. There are a lot of monsters to be killed, and, most of the time, the only danger is that your attention might lapse." -- PoD "The combat was advanced in many ways, but often the returned to battling mountains of HP that can conjure up more HP mounds via Arcane Summon. These battle of attrition became tedious slug fests outweighing all the benefit of the impressive technical razzle dazzle. In other words, I often found myself having little fun." -- Stareye "Also, I have to agree with other people's comments on the combat. There was very little variation in tactics required." -- Creator We're all used to criticisms being ignored, but don't forget that they even exist. (It should also bear some significance that there isn't a single designer who doesn't pan your combat, although you may treat that as elitism.) quote:I only remember four of the above (Legare, Kass and the two humans), and I wasn't aware that Machrone was "major", but so long as the lines are good, this is a vast improvement. quote:Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. quote:Is this a scenario or a prog rock band? Or, in other words- I like that you have to "learn a language" to progress in the scenario, but what was wrong with Bahss' solution of just incrementing a flag? quote:Novelty? You have roughly 7 years of BoE to play through. quote:"And it isn't clear why Bahssikava has no outdoors. Except as a time-consuming inconvenience, it never affects a player's choices or actions (provided you're willing to backtrack, you can always find places to rest and level-up), so none of the gameplay challenges that might follow from the design decision and give the scenario a character of its own are ever allowed to develop." -- Boots As for me? So long as it's a scenario, I'll await the release. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, January 3 2006 18:07
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quote:Technically, Hopelandic isn't really a conlang. To be a conlang, its vocabulary would have to have a defined meaning. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 01:05
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It sounds good to me, although I still have nightmares of the other riverscenario: the Za-Khazi run. for me the most interesting part will probably be to learn more about the Slith language and culture. Although you already made things about that clear in bahs, this will be even more interesting. I don't quite understand how you ar going to do that with the language (or is it just with a flag?). It will (or is) certainly be the more difficult part of the scenario, in my opinion. I have been waiting for this quite a long time. I already thought Bahs was very, no, extremely good, but (as so many people already said) the fightin became mundane at the end. Another thing was, and that maybe the influence of the other Avernums, that I couldn't believe the amount of demons that invaded bahssikava. Where I was first shuddering because I saw another demon in Avernum 3, there I was hacking in on the level 45 Haakai's! You can't say it didn't make me laugh and grin of the feeling of power I hadn't felt before. I hope its indeed true what you say, and the amount of undead is much less. Espacially the Slith ghost made me terrified. 53 towns!? I thought my own scenario had a record of 42 towns already! I already have difficulty finishing all the 42 towns that I have finished designing. the coding is the part that kills me, although I quite enjoy it. What I really hope is that you have these nice challenging puzzles again. Bahs was one of the few scenario's in which I truely enjoyed all the puzzles, and espacially (I know how many people think otherwise) the puzzle in the machinery level of the catacombs in ancient Bahssikava. 30 outdoor sections. How do you get the patience, let alone the amount of imagination needed to fill all sections? i have 9 and I encounter problems filling the last. I wish you good luck. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 03:15
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TM, stop trolling. Both you and I know that there were obvious criticisms of Bahs's combat, but nothing relating to the battles being "large." Your point is spurious. Special spells: yes, I'm flattering Stareye with my imitation. (I'm actually doing everything I can to avoid doing anything resembling Canopy's special spells, since I hated them. But eh.) Oh, and one other thing, TM: you will hate Exodus. Thralni: there are almost no undead. I've done a mental check, and there are a few places where one might encounter undead (most not hostile), but only town in which the majority of your fighting is against undead. There are a couple of demons, but nothing like the demon swarm that over-ran Ancient Bahssikava. About the slith language: you won't have to learn the language to get anywhere in Exodus. I'm just going to throw in a few sentences in the language (which will be immediately translated, since the party already learned the language in Bahssikava and Vasskolis). It's just for fun. And atmosphere (or something). Besides, I'm not sure that anyone else will really be able to understand the language anyway. The grammar is something of a fusion of Latin, Greek, and the Slavic languages (particularly Polish). Out of curiosity, is there anyone else here who seriously studies a language with declensions? Or happens to speak Finnish or German or Russian (etc.) natively and has carefully read grammar books on his or her own language (enough that when I say something like "genitive case" you know what I mean)? [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 03:21: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 04:50
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Not sure this is what you mean, but I learn Latin (and once also Greek, last year) in school. I can speak a bit of hebrew, though its a bit rusty. Less undead is what I wanted to hear, although what you just said about the alnguage did dissapoint me a bit. i thought we'd see some "real" ancient slithisch (or whatever its called). Some sentences in the ancient language, a school we can learn it or something. So I can't expect that to happen, I assume? -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 06:05
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quote:A novelty for me, and yes, yes I do. Also, TM and Kel, please stop the mudslinging already. You're both masters, and all this fighting isn't going to change that. :P [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 06:08: Message edited by: Dept. of Homeland Security ] -------------------- Encyclopaedia • Archives • Members • RSS [Topic / Forum] • Blog • Polaris • NaNoWriMo Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. I have a love of woodwind instruments. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 09:58
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quote:Fun to watch though, eh? Exodus sounds good. Better than Bahs, and I liked that bunches. Bunches and bunches. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 11:14
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quote:I dunno- I could have sworn that the gist of Boots' review was panning the dynamic of the scenario, which is unto itself the large fights. And when someone says "the combat sucks" hollistically, the large fights are included. So okay- maybe it's not just that the fights are large. (Hell, people didn't object to any unusual extent to Trahison than they did any other fight respectively.) Why you make the difference, however, is beyond me. quote:Different ways of walking through the same door. Point is, I approve of including special spells- just that however you include them is bound to determine the way your combat functions. If you make them "bigger and badder damage dealers" like in Canopy, the scenario becomes offensively-geared. (Which is, for instance, why your "defensively-geared and overly-leveled" playing style didn't suit the way it was designed at all.) Either you can make the effect that the spells have be minimal, or you're doing the same thing you blame Canopy of doing, and that is re-inventing combat to suit the purposes of your scenario's strategy. Eat the caviar and enjoy the taste. quote:Yeah! Stick it to designer elitism. quote:*Raises hand* (Actually, the genativ is decreasing in prevalence and being replaced with dativ, but they still teach it to us- which is good.) quote: quote: -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 11:22
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quote:Yes, you will see some sentences in the language. Here, this is what I'm talking about: you find an altar, and part of the message that pops up says, "It says: 'Herethet totet, Soothaanam theifaam lothamon khoot kaalokh totem polenem fakhithathookh divem.' That is: with this temple, we praise the goddess Sothana and the noble men who have made this city rich." [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 13:37: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 12:27
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A conlang for the sliths! *rolls around in gleeful dork laughter* One question: does this language use the same script as whatever the humans speak? If it does, that could raise some interesting questions about racial history. Also, the large number of double vowels seems pretty unusual for a native script. Hmm. Interesting sample, though. Care to provide a word-by-word translation? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 13:15
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The script is the same as the human script. The assumption that I'm working under is that one race first invented writing, and that race taught it to everyone else. The double vowels represent long vowels. That is, Soothaanam is the same thing as Sôthânam. Double consonants represent greater quantities, too, although there are none in that particular sentence. Word-for-word? Okay. Herethet ("temple" — instrumental singular) totet (demonstrative adjective "this" — instrumental singular neuter), Soothaanam (name: "Sothana" — accusative singular) theifam ("goddess" — accusative singular) lothamon ("to praise" — first person plural present active indicative perfective) khoot ("and" — strong form) kaalokh ("noble" — accusative plural masculine substantive adjective) totem (demonstrative adjective "this" — accusative singular neuter) polenem ("city" — accusative singular) fakhithathookh ("to do/make" — present perfect active perfective participle accusative plural masculine) divem ("rich" — accusative singular neuter). "By means of temple this, Sothana goddess we praise and noble [men] this city having made rich." EDIT: Small mistake in the sentence. (EDIT 3: Actually, I like it better the first way.) EDIT 2: This is Classical Slith, by the way, which is heavy on the inflections. Modern Slith is much lighter on them. Barbaric Slith (the kind most commonly found in Avernum) lacks a case system entirely. [ Thursday, January 05, 2006 11:44: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 16:03
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Cool. I see you are unapologetic in your classical appropriations, heh. All the et's and k's and h's make it sound a little Egyptian. I am assuming your letter "h" varies as in English between syllabic (Herethet), aspirational (khoot), theta (theifaam) and thorn (lothamon)? Someone in Avernum really ought to speak an agglutinative language. Hmm. Perhaps the gremlins... Does Barbaric Slith have any syntax at all? For nouns, anyway? Anyway, very cool, I look forward to seeing it in action. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 17:40
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I'd imagine that barbaric slith is centered around three phrases: "This is mine," "Let's copulate" and "copulate with yourself". -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6629
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 20:49
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Kelandon, are you going to post up the Slith language on your homepage? -------------------- "When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane." Posts: 120 | Registered: Sunday, January 1 2006 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 23:35
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To reactions after reading this joyfull news: 1) You will present the Slith language in the scenario at some point. Now unless you don't actually let the player learn a bit of the language, the player wouldn't know what you are talking about. now you said youi would offer a translation with it, but that doesn't make sense. How is the party supposed to know what it says, or do you learn the language at some point? that would be really cool. that you would be able to actually translate it for yourself, and you could have an option of looking at the real translation later, in the readme for example. hey, how about a small grammar and vocabulary guide!? Something about this idea makes me shiver of excitement. 2) How do you know all this? notes of Avernum 1, 2 and 3, or you invented it? Did you also happen to make notes about Nephilim culture? i could use it for my own scenario. A scenario without some depth into the enemy I think is just a bit boring, you see. [ Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:36: Message edited by: Thralni, chicken god prophet ] -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, January 4 2006 23:52
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quote:The party is supposed to be the same party that finished Bahssikava. In that scenario, you were supposed to learn the ancient Slithzerikai language. (It was possible not to do so, but you missed a lot of the plot if you did.) -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, January 5 2006 11:41
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quote:Also, if you didn't learn the language during the course of the scenario, you learn it at the very end via a mind crystal right before Legare arrives in Vasskolis. The party by the end of Bahs understands the slith language. quote:Jeff certainly didn't make this language. :P I thought it was obvious from the way that I described it: I invented it. I did try to use the sound system that I saw at work in names in the Avernum games (and it helped that I could equate the frequent -oss ending to a -us Latin ending), but for the most part, it's created. quote:The "h" does two things: when alone, it's the "h" in "happy"; when following a consonant, it's half of a digraph representing one sound (generally a fricative). Everything that can be aspirated is aspirated — this language comes from the hissing of lizard men, after all — so there's no need to mark it. quote:The syntax is more or less like the syntax of English or Spanish: SVO word order, a variety of prepositions to function in place of case endings ("to someone" instead of "someone" in the dative case), etc. The conjugational system is MUCH reduced, and the vocabulary (as TM said) is rather simpler as well. quote:I haven't really decided what I'm going to do with it just yet. I think around the time that I put out a beta call (hopefully a few months from now), I'll put some notes on my page. Not sure. [ Thursday, January 05, 2006 11:42: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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