Blowing the lid off the Canopy
| Author | Topic: Blowing the lid off the Canopy |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, September 16 2005 14:39
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Slightly revised version: How do I loathe and detest the dark shroud of a scenario known as Canopy? Let me count the ways. Firstly, in its favor, TM, while orginating from some vile and violent planet not yet specified, never fails to demonstrate his/her/its technical prowess and creativity. Apart from that, the malignant world of Canopy descends rapidly into a philosophical and linguistic morass in which one’s own beloved, nurtured PC's are possessed and forced to dance like marionettes to the fantasy fascist drumbeats of TM's deranged plot devices. TM takes Canopy to a new height in an endless barrage of new unspecified spell wands and magical artifacts which one can barely comprehend or carry at the rate they manifest. Upon cleaning out the Sud guard tower, one can never return to cash in on all the dropped loot, and if one does not carry out exactly what is of value the first time, it will be forever beyond one's clutches. Elements like this which unpredictably take any real sense of control out of my hands hacked me off to no end. I even lost a nice clutch of arrows I had set down in the marketplace and never got a chance to retrieve before the ignoble ending. The worst offense by far, and the point at which my enjoyment of Canopy shifted dramatically toward antipathy was encountering the invisible bug-bear warriors who curse all your PC's, make reaccumulating spell points impossible, continually teleport around so you have to keep determining their locations, and deal out dual 100 point blows per turn. These did not strike me as clever or sensible challenges in any way. They struck me (while striking me often) as the intentionally Vogel-violating invention of a designer who wants to come up with the most impossibly challenging adversary, as if this was somehow inherently fun. That the primitive bug-bears have somehow learned to personally teleport around repeatedly at will when all the mages and wizards of the Empire and Avernum are required to build tricky, expensive transporteres to teleport anyone is simply insulting, nonsensical, and inane. Never mind that they have found a way to become invisible at the same time as well. It is designed only as the most annoying challenge a warped mind can conjure. Personally I need something more rational and believable out of a game, than this kind of perfidy. TM simply violates the rules and spirit of Avernum at every turn and drags us through the aggro-gothic mire of his own savage, adolescent fantasies. The colony of tigers I did find an amusing and enjoyable reprieve from the otherwise ubiquitous wickedness that saturates this alien world of TM's deranged conjurations. Why are we offered Invulnerability and Protection potions to buy in this scenario when so many bosses I faced in battle rendered them magically useless without either explanation or warning? Most battles were reduced to finding some way of having my primary fighter physically hammer the main adversary(s) long enough to kill him while using my mage/priest to somehow keep both of them alive, along with using the appropriate, but entirely non-intuitive magic wand. The fact that the multitude of new souped-up wands collected through the scenario have no in-game description of their function hardly aided my efforts or my shortening fuse. If you are going to modify artifacts, please identify their function within the game itself. I left more things behind than ever on this level because the plot kept seizing my characters and pushing them forward. I don't like being pushed when playing a game when it means I can’t really feel finished with an area I have just conquered. If I have one general criticism of many of the add-on levels I have played so far, it is that often they propel me forward on auto-pilot and I have little feel at all like the world of exploration and free will that Jeff is good at creating. I know that takes a lot more thinking and work to achieve. Despite the apparent inventiveness and competency of the creator, Canopy continually annoyed, infuritated, or insulted me. Even simple aspects like the location of the solitary means to identify items forcing me to run through a very circuitous and rather nonsensical route into the main castle greatly decreased my enjoyment from the get-go, considering how many unique unidentified items one finds in this scenario. There is a conveniently constructed marketplace in the second town, but no I.D.ing there, and the exchange rate is also a kick in the behind, being Exorbitant as the only possibility. TM seems to take perverse pleasure in manipulating, irritating, and violating his puppets, er, victims, er players. I'd sure like to see more in the way of clever plot and character construction in scenarios, and not merely showing off scripting sequences or finding new ways to make fights impossibly difficult in many situations (like for those having a party of two). Here is a lot of malignant adolescent fantasy and a lack of light-heartedness or humanity to offer balance. Maybe Canopy is gratifying if you’re a pissed off twenty year old anarchist male? All my contentions aside, I am impressed with much of the inventiveness and pushing of parameters TM and others have demonstrated with their scenarios. TM does construct some very cool environments, that I can surely give him/her/it. Bahssikava...here I come. Got my fingers crossed for something I can sink my teeth into, and not feel I have had someone else’s teeth sunk into me. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled deprogramming. [ Wednesday, September 21, 2005 14:42: Message edited by: synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, September 16 2005 14:44
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Forum leader, in the interest of saving bytes, please delete this useless post. [ Monday, September 19, 2005 20:16: Message edited by: synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, September 16 2005 16:01
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quote:That's more or less the point. Given that there's already Avernum 3 and a dozen or so BoA scenarios out there all with basically the same combat system, it's necessary to mess around with the way the engine works in order to keep things interesting. Canopy doesn't always get it right, but it has the right idea. quote:To be fair, only 3 bosses do this. quote:If you'd used those "wands" you'd apparently neglected, that probably would have helped you out. quote:Um, he did. There's a readme file inside the scenario folder that tells you what all of them do. I'm starting to get the impression that most people don't actually think to look in the scenario folder for a readme. Does every scenario need to start with a little message advising people to read the readme? quote:That's generally intentional. Most players consider it to be a basically good thing, as it allows for a stronger and more coherent plot. quote:He was banned for coarse language and repeatedly evading the filters designed to prevent coarse language. He'll be back next month. [ Friday, September 16, 2005 16:04: Message edited by: Calomel ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, September 16 2005 16:45
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*Moves to the BoA forum* You know, I didn't like Canopy's special spells either, but for a different reason. Unlike those in TM's BoE scenario NTH, Canopy's spells supplemented the default spells (whereas NTH's replaced them entirely). That created a full spellset that didn't cohere, at least for me: Canopy's special spells don't match the default ones in terms of style. What default spell seems even remotely like Rasereiangriff, Flammenentwurf, or Summon Baldev? Canopy's spells might have seemed more legitimate to me had they wholly replaced the defaults (like in NTH) or were in the same style as the defaults. However, there's another side to that. Canopy's spells were almost exclusively direct-damage spells. BoA already has a surplus of useless direct-damage spells doing fire, magic, and cold damage. Other than adding a whole heck of a lot more base damage, those spells didn't create any new effects — you were still doing fire damage or whatever. In other words, Canopy's spells somehow managed to be too different from the defaults in style (damage yourself while doing damage) and not different enough in effect (do lots of fire damage), IMO. A different way to do special spells, one that I would've liked more, involves taking advantage of the currently unused or under-used features of the engine, like fields or statuses. Area of effect spells, perhaps. Or something completely out there, like special spells that set flags that alter AI, or special spells that change a monster type (like in Babysitting). Or replace the original spells entirely — one can take them away as in LP and take it a step farther by replacing them with special ones. I don't think it's that I don't like tactical combat, which I believed for a while. It's that I don't like Canopy's interpretation of tactical combat. But eh — different strokes and such. Some people really like Canopy. Oh yeah, and two more things: you might, having played several scenarios, want to go over to CSR and rate them, since that is probably the most appropriate place for a post like this — unless you're intending to start discussion, in which case here is fine. Also, I have little hope that you'll like Bahs more, but we'll see. [ Friday, September 16, 2005 16:48: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Friday, September 16 2005 17:35
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But Bahs is easily better than Canopy. Also it is much closer to the Avernum world. Perhaps thatis what Synergy67 wants. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 00:46
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I think TM will actually be very happy to hear that his scenario is "Vogel-violating". :P What you're doing here is somewhat like complaining about the lack of humour in Schindler's List. It wasn't meant to be what you were looking for. No work of art can be all things to all people, and TM's intention with Canopy was not to provide a world for the player to explore and baddies for the player to beat up. You want that, play the Adventurer's Club series. Speaking for myself, when I play a scenario, I want to experience something other than wandering around, finding a brigand fort (which naturally has a convenient back entrance), killing all the bandits, collecting a nice bit of loot, and repeating over and over. Mind, I'm not much of a fan of TM myself. For my money, his scenarios tend to be a bunch of fights and technical whizzbangery in a line, with meaningless philosphical babble as the only context for them. So I play scenarios that are more likely to be my sort of thing instead. In my opinion, A Perfect Forest is the best BoA scenario at the moment. At one point, when the city you're in is attacked, you have to escape, and if there were loose ends or unfinished quests or whatever back where you were before, you have to drop them. There's no warning. You might dislike this, I think it really adds something to the moment. You're not up against nice, safe bad guys who won't ever inconvenience you. Bad stuff can happen to you. YOU are in danger. 'scuse the directionless ramble. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5274
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 01:59
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quote:Seconded. Maybe it could have used a little more polish but APF is excellent in providing a fluid, rolling plot even if you disagree with the philosophy behind it. For whatever reason I also liked the way it dealt with its characters, in terms of introducing a series of well thought out NPCs with interesting back stories and then killing them off like flies. I found that a different approach. In regards to Canopy the technical mastery was interesting for a while but the fact that as a player you felt insulted by the purile crap TM forced your characters to spout against their will, well, that detracted from the overall experience. [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 02:00: Message edited by: Poit ] -------------------- I assume my reputation for arrogant presumption precedes me Posts: 107 | Registered: Thursday, December 9 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 02:46
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A point I've made often, and that TM seems to mostly disagree with, is that a designer should decide if the player's character belongs to him or the player and establish it clearly and early. I have no problem with the character I play being different from myself, saying and doing things I wouldn't agree with, or knowing things that I don't. In fact, I think it's pretty darn cool. But make sure you do it properly. If you decide that the PCs belong to you, the designer, you need to flesh them out fuller than any other character in the scenario. TM doesn't do this, which is one of the reasons I don't enjoy his work. PS Poit, you have so gotta play some Alcritas scenarios. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 04:03
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I also had that particular problem with Canopy's control of your PC, for the same reason as Ash. I've played several games in which the player is a separate entity from the character. The Last Express, one of my favorite adventure games ever, uses this idea masterfully - you don't know everything about your character until almost at the end. On the other hand, there are often easily as good games that are good because they permit the degree of freedom in your character to play as the person you want to instead of the person that the designer wants you to. The problem comes when the two are combined unevenly - as, I think, in Canopy. On the other hand, TM is pretty damn good at coming up with original settings, and his scripting is excellent. [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 04:04: Message edited by: Dung Demon ] -------------------- ~Note : The professional newbie's advice should not be taken seriously, or at all.~ LINKAGE Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5274
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 04:26
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quote:Likewise. For me it comes back to the idea of ownership, as a player to become interested in the story you need some kind of personal stake in the character, it doesn't have to be complete ownership, in fact you don't even need real control at all, just as long as it fools you into thinking you have some. Mad Ambition was a great improvement in that regard, that fact I didn't find my characters spouting kindergaten interpretations of existentialist philosophy ever five seconds gives it bonus points in my book. I'll stop bagging TM now, I just wish he wasn't banned so I could watch him fight back. quote:Yeah so far I've heard nothing but good things about him. I was going to checkout his BOE work but I thought I might as well get a scenario of my own done first, just in case his stuff is so good it shatters my confidence. :P [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 04:34: Message edited by: Poit ] -------------------- I assume my reputation for arrogant presumption precedes me Posts: 107 | Registered: Thursday, December 9 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 04:28
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quote::) I actually referenced that game in my rather lengthy article on just this subject. Player vs Party -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 08:08
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Is Alcritas ever planning on making scenarios for BoA? -------------------- "Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending" Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 08:25
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quote:I've actually discussed the merits of Canopy with TM before, and it seems that his intention was nothing less than to turn the entire combat system of Avernum on its head, as has been said before. Those spells are overpowered. Baldev in particular. Extra philosophical baggage always hurts a scenario (RoR, anyone?), particularly when it's forced onto the PCs with little development. Thus, MA was better. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 08:31
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quote:No. He's pretty much retired from scenario design. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 12:51
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A bit of followup on Canopy now that I’m not all fired up coming right off a scenario which repeatedly annoyed me: I would have posted my “review” at the Lyceum site, but didn’t feel like signing up for a new site at the moment when I was writing it. I just wanted to pound out my thoughts on the scenario and also hear thoughts from others about it. README’s in the scenario folders...sometimes I remember to look for one and sometimes not. Having to change applications and pulling up a text file to remind me of the function of numerous custom wands with nearly unpronounceable and indistinguishable titles in the heat of battle is highly inconvenient coming from someone like TM who clearly is masterful at manipulating all the elements of the programming. I didn’t find that acceptable. I did manage to use the tiger summon and two of the wands to defeat bosses appropriately, btw, sometimes only because the hint list pointed toward the correct wands to use. I think it’s fine, even great to manipulate and alter game and combat rules. You just gotta give the player the cues, clues, and warnings about what to expect from an altered universe. I hate playing games by trial and error where I can’t use my natural intuition or logic to figure things out to a reasonable degree. I think a truly good game makes it possible to collect information and make strategies and adapt to situations to find ways to stay alive in real time. The whole fantasy genre, by nature, is difficult at best to concoct in such a way, because, like sci-fi, we are dealing with an unfamiliar universe in many ways with new rules. I guess I’m a sucker for things that feel real, vital, and compelling underneath it all. Just making things difficult in weird new ways doesn’t generally achieve much of that by itself. TM’s a very clever guy, no denying it. I found his unexpected, wry ending to Canopy highly amusing, though I had such a hard time believing that it was the intended outcome, that I had to attempt all options before finally submitting to my fate. I have plenty of praise for TM on a technical, creative, and inventive level. I enjoyed a good bit of Mad Ambition quite well. Put all together though, the aggravation added up more than the pleasure for me in Canopy, despite all the bells and whistles. And all that said, I’m glad TM is making scenarios. I’m not trying to be elitist or suggest that the way I want things to be is the way they should be or that others want them to be. They’re just my observations and opinions for whatever they are or are not worth. Allrighty then... -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 13:00
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Oh, and P.S., even with all my gripes about Canopy---and I was expecting some of them going in from the get-go, having played Mad Ambition---it's like looking at a car crash at the side of the highway. Half of me hopes to see something gruesome, the other half hopes not to, but either way I'm compelled to look and see what's there in the wreckage. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 16:27
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I don't think we're actually disagreeing about much. Your opinion of Canopy seems similar to that of most of the community; good ideas, wrong implementation. The wrongness of the implementation just seems to bother you more than it does us, probably because after several years of BoE we've seen some really awful scenarios, and Canopy is so much better by comparison. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3171
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 16:31
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synergy67 - Until you create scenario that is better than TM's quit pissing and moaning. [ Saturday, September 17, 2005 16:33: Message edited by: Kingy ] Posts: 776 | Registered: Friday, July 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, September 17 2005 17:50
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Kingy, I repeatedly acknowledge the creative and technical prowess of TM. In many regards, Canopy does deserve to be high up on the heap (the heap is not very high yet for BoA). If it didn't sound so daunting to really master using the scenario editor, I'd be building my own right now. I'd love to try something really experimental and unusual, while being aesthetically and functionally very pleasing. It sounds like it takes a hell of a learning curve and a lot of time to make one of these things, so all due respect to TM and all others who have taken it upon themselves for people like me to try and in all fairness voice my displeasure over the experience. I'm one person with one person's opinion. -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Sunday, September 18 2005 08:38
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quote:Kingy, TM himself is the absolute king of pissing and moaning. He gives it and is willing to take it. Argue on the merits of the scenario if you like, but there's no need to ping someone for saying what they think of a scenario. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6068
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written Thursday, September 22 2005 16:38
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Canopy wasn't that bad... except that you're not allowed to actually win the game, and that for all the times I've played it, my people are now un-un-un-un-un-dead. I sort of liked the Nature's Hand wand. It could kill just about anything for very little Spell Points, especially wizards. And Baldev the tiger is cool, too. By the way, does anyone know how to get into the little secluded room in the tiger's den? The one with the rune blocking the way? -------------------- "Sometimes I get all hungry! And then I catch some flies! They fly into my webs! They are really yummy guys!" -Spider Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00 |