Den Haag
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Friday, December 21 2007 22:26
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With the direct consent of the President and without an even cursory effort to justify it with statute, emergency powers, or coherent philosophy of government, the US executive branch has engaged in a number of basically unacceptable behaviors. By the Geneva Convention - which we've signed into law - our abetting torture makes anyone in the Executive Branch without an alibi answerable to the UN, any ad hoc international court formed of the right constituent states, or any country with universal jurisdiction. In 1997, for example, Augusto Pinochet was arrested in London on an indictment by a Spanish judge for crimes against humanity alleged and documented by the Catholic Church and other human rights organizations; even an extremely narrow indictment - that is, one examining only severe and self-evident torture taking place after Chile's 1989 accession to human rights conventions - was sufficient to demand that Pinochet weasel out of the trial. (And his absence, and an audience being given to his accusers internationally, caused him to wither away as a steely force for evil in his own country - to the point that, within a few years, even the Christian Democrats who had found him questionable but basically a force for good regarded him as a national shame.) In short, Bush and any other member of the Cabinet with executive power is answerable to every human rights treaty the US has subjected itself to, including the Geneva Convention. While the US claims immunity to ICJ jurisdiction, the US expressly acknowledges universal jurisdiction: the Subsequent Nuremburg Trials, in which Allied, not German, judges tried members of a then-sovereign government whose law was at their personal command, form a major precedent. Technically, for some insane reason, the bodies responsible for it have taken impeachment off of the table. And never mind that, had you told any person from ten years ago that a future President would have an approval rating remaining below 30% for over two years, they would consider you a liar. The question is, with the US executive making an official - or 'official' - policy of contempt for the rights of its own citizens {violating even the unconstitutionally generous statute a Republican congress offered them on wiretapping}, for human rights in general {torture}, and for the constituent principles of its own state {indefinite detainment without charge, censorship and intimidation in domestic and foreign journalism}... is there any reason the government, more or less from the postmaster-general up, shouldn't be hauled in before an international court and tried for crimes against humanity? Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, December 21 2007 22:49
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The chief reason you will never see it happen is that prosecution can only occur if the perpetrators (president, etc.) are on the soil of a nation that will do it. This is why Rumsfeld and certain other cabinet officials never went to some European countries when there were attempts to charge them for war crimes in Iraq. Bush is pretty much trying to run out the clock and hopes that there will be no attempt in this country. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, December 21 2007 23:38
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This notion of ultimate executive power has certainly backfired. It used to be that people automatically respected authority, and with good reason. Those in charge commanded respect through their demeanor and actions. But Bush screwed that up. I have to say that my default reaction is now one of suspicion, rather than respect. I suspect police, armed forces, public officials. They have suffered due to the abuses that start at the top of the pyramid. Now, I wouldn't so hastily condemn by association, except that Bush's faults have been seen as assets by other "authority" figures and emulated to some degree. I watched on the news tonight about some woman that got tasered by a cop. Apparently the woman's was called by her estranged husband for a good argue. While she was yelling into the phone, she wandered away from the checkout counter, leaving her card behind. The clerk assumed the woman was scared because her card was stolen, so alerted a uniformed cop on the situation. The cop attempted to question her, but the woman tried to move away so she could continue exchanging yells, and was then dropped like a sack of potatoes. When interviewed, the chief of police was very angry, and said that people need to respect police and always do what they are told. It turned out that the credit card was fine, it just had to be run through again. The woman was arrested and charged with... resisting arrest. Buncha winnahs out there. Anyway Alec. Yeah. -------------------- Synergy, et al - "I don't get it." Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted" Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Saturday, December 22 2007 00:22
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quote:Two words: My Lai. I won't disagree with your basic premise - that Bush and company are horrible examples and even worse excuses - but I do have to argue that even in the height of responsible technocracy in America - before Nixon had buried the Great Society all the way, and Reagan pissed on its grave - we were still being compelled to carpet-bomb Asian villages by 'authority', or sometimes just given open-ended orders by authority and explicitly expected to carry them out in a fashion that reduced whatever village to smoldering ruins. Saved the money on clusterbombs, see. And, unfortunately, it isn't like this is new. Low-rankers' initiative didn't cause Fort Pillow, and the best single way to predict the prevalence of police brutality seems to be the prevalence of police. It's gotten worse, but the sad thing is that I don't think it's ever been close to good. quote:Lordy. I hear about the occasional really dire case from my dad in trauma. He had one guy come in with a taser electrode through his nuts: he was the loser in a fight (police procedure is to pin down the loser; actual police officers do this because pinning down the winner is likely to end in the loser going over and kicking his teeth in, and Dirty Harry wannabes do this because it allows them to get their rocks off on a minimally dangerous target), and the other guy had evidently beat him bad enough that he was in some kind of convulsive episode. So he didn't stop shaking around after an officer of the peace told him to. So they tased him. He had six or seven sets of darts in him, because tasers aren't a particularly good treatment for grand mal seizures and the officers evidently felt it incumbent to keep tasing him until he stopped moving. And once he regained consciousness and the shocks stopped, it was similarly difficult to get him to stop thrashing and screaming, because one of the darts penetrated his scrotum. By all indications, one of the first. I think the blame in both cases rests partially on a magic-bullet attitude that's become prevalent in law enforcement regarding tasers. The unsettling thing is that that kind of excessive, physically and psychologically destructive response has pretty much always been par for the course - it's just that we're hearing about it now because uniformed sadists butchering an innocent civilian with tiny electric darts is far more novel than those same sadists crushing his bones against the wall in a crude pantomime of a submission hold. The former, you see, requires progress. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 04:22
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quote:We can indict the lot if you extradite them here. Deal? :P -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 04:46
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Holding leaders accountable for their actions runs the risk of undermining the authority of their office. We may force vice-presidents to resign or use cabinet members as scapegoats, but in all American history the government has always avoided attacking number one. Nixon was pardoned, Andrew Johnson was acquitted, and no one dared mess with Jackson, no matter how much of a bastard he was. Remember this: America will much sooner risk having the office of the presidency stained with disgrace than having it look weak. No, Bush is here to stay, and he will not answer for his crimes as long as America is writing history. This is how it is. I just wish we could at least get Cheney. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 08:57
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Nixon was pardoned by his interim successor, after he left his office more or less in disgrace. He resigned before he could be convicted, but it was looking likely. Is it too much to hope that the current president fares likewise? I know that this would leave us with almost a year of Cheney in the seat of power, but I'm not seeing what difference that would make from right now. -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 13:53
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Cheney's smarter and more vindictive than Bush, though. With Bush, at least we know the score with the crap in Iraq. With Cheney in command, though, I'd place money on a massive military surge in Iraq, and war with Iran before term's up would almost be a sure thing. -------------------- Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl? Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios. In Last Hope's Light RP - The end is near... Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 16:48
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Most of us are pretty sure that he's already in charge... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Quaere verum Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 17:23
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Touché. However, being directly in power would probably be more disastrous then it is now, with him having to get everything through Bush. Probably not that hard, but it's still an obstacle. -------------------- Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl? Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios. In Last Hope's Light RP - The end is near... Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 18:13
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quote:Says you. Dense matter is not known for being very permeable. -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, December 23 2007 19:24
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That's why Cheney ordered a quail costume several months ago. -------------------- "In retrospect, it looks like I got off easy." - Patrick J. Leahy. [ Sunday, December 23, 2007 19:25: Message edited by: Nioca ] Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, December 24 2007 00:37
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As in the bird, or the vice president? (This doesn't really work when written down. :P ) -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, December 24 2007 01:10
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I'd honestly be happier impeaching Cheney than Bush. He's more openly contemptuous of the law; Bush at least tries to pretend he's not violating it, or he has some special license to. Cheney's excuse is go to Hell. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |