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AuthorTopic: Omaha Mall Shooting
Shaper
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If you were homeless, what would you do?

I've noticed that it seems to be very common for people to deny the validity of statistics which don't agree with their view. Numbers don't lie; however, people can use them in very misleading ways...

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 19:59: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
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yes but homeless people are only an extremely small percentage of poor people of which only 20-40 percent are estimated to be gay. The artical also stated that most of the gays were youths kicked out of their families for such opinions so arguable speaking most of them decided their sexuality before they became poor.

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Originally by Safey:

quote:
It angers me that liberals claim to have the poor mans best interest in yet they are more concerned with idiot nitpicking laws then the real issues.
Then what, in your opinion, are the real issues liberals should be worrying about?

Dikiyoba.

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quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Safey:

quote:
It angers me that liberals claim to have the poor mans best interest in yet they are more concerned with idiot nitpicking laws then the real issues.
Then what, in your opinion, are the real issues liberals should be worrying about?

Dikiyoba.

Helping poor people over come poverty instead of merely surviving it. Something to help alleviate the working poor who receive little if any help. Most of the human resource department help people become professional couch potatoes. You lose any benefits if you try to improve your status. Same goes with health care, you try to get a job even if the job doesn't have health coverage(or allows you to afford it) you lose any health coverage provided by the government.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 20:51: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Helping poor people over come poverty instead of merely surviving it. Something to help alleviate the working poor who receive little if any help.
Well, gee, do you think the working poor might be doing better if the right wasn't doing its damnedest to hamstring the union movement?

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Things were no better when Clinton was in power or democrats held the house or the senate. If it wasn't for internet, TV, Newspaper ect. I wouldn't have know about that change. 2 I have received more help from conservative churches that I ever have from a liberal or government organization.

edit: Either the liberals are impotent or hypocrites, I think hypocrites because they have no trouble giving money to professional couch potatoes producing another generation of professional couch potatoes.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 21:50: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Things were no better when Clinton was in power or democrats held the house or the senate. If it wasn't for internet, TV, Newspaper ect. I wouldn't have know about that change. 2 I have received more help from conservative churches that I ever have from a liberal or government organization.
Either the liberals are impotent or hypocrites

Ah, I see the problem now: you don't actually know what the left is. Clinton was centrist or centre-right by any reasonable definition of the term. There are perhaps one or two centre-left politicians in the entire US Congress. By global standards, the Democrats are centre-right, and the Republicans are far-right, and both parties have been neglecting social services for the past three decades.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 21:54: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Clinton's opinion happens to be what ever is popular, because she doesn't side with your opinion means your unpopular. Also your statement doesn't explain how welfare (something supported by liberals) helps couch potatoes yet doesn't help the working poor in some cases discouraging people from getting a job.

but to humor you what exactly is the "left"?

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 21:57: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Clinton's opinion happens to be what ever is popular, because she doesn't side with your opinion means your unpopular. Also your statement doesn't explain how welfare (something supported by liberals) helps couch potatoes yet doesn't help the working poor in some cases discouraging people from getting a job.

but to humor you what exactly is the "left"?

Again, it's because the right (which is to say, every administration since Reagan) has been systematically dismantling the welfare system. (Also, if you think it's possible for "couch potatoes" to survive on welfare, try being a couch potato and see how that works out for you: living on welfare in the US sucks for everyone who's on it, and 90% of people receiving welfare that's supposed to support their needs have to work illegally to make ends meet.)

You want to see the left in action? Move to Norway, the country with the highest standard of living on Earth.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 22:02: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Clinton's opinion happens to be what ever is popular, because she doesn't side with your opinion means your unpopular. Also your statement doesn't explain how welfare (something supported by liberals) helps couch potatoes yet doesn't help the working poor in some cases discouraging people from getting a job.

but to humor you what exactly is the "left"?

Again, it's because the right (which is to say, every administration since Reagan) has been systematically dismantling the welfare system. You want to see the left in action? Move to Norway, the country with the highest standard of living on Earth.

Considering I will never get the chance to visit Norway could elaborate? Also if the conservatives did dismantle welfare like you said, then how come nonworking poor get benefits and while the working poor get nill. As far as living on welfare I wouldn't know (with out the possible exception of food stamps). My mom use to work for welfare (as a clerk years back) and she hated the how people who could work but didn't get loads of money but those can't work (elderly) didn't get to much in comparison. Seeing some of them driving up in new trucks/cars.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 22:07: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Considering I will never get the chance to visit Norway could elaborate? Also if the conservatives did dismantle welfare like you said, then how come nonworking poor get benefits and while the working poor get nill
There's no such thing as the non-working poor in the US. No such thing. There's only the working poor who work legally and receive welfare, and the working poor who receive welfare and do work off-the-books to supplement their income. In most of the US, it is impossible to survive on welfare alone. Nearly all welfare recipients are forced to work illegally in order to survive, and the government knows this.

Like I said, living black hole of ignorance. With how little you know about the world, your authority to hold political opinions is on par with the average catfish.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 22:09: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Considering I will never get the chance to visit Norway could elaborate? Also if the conservatives did dismantle welfare like you said, then how come nonworking poor get benefits and while the working poor get nill
There's no such thing as the non-working poor in the US. No such thing. There's only the working poor who work legally and receive welfare, and the working poor who receive welfare and do work off-the-books to supplement their income. In most of the US, it is impossible to survive on welfare alone. Nearly all welfare recipients are forced to work illegally in order to survive, and the government knows this.

You must live in a part of the US where the cost of living is insane. Lots of people do it in the places I have lived and places I moved too. "legally working power" get little in the way welfare

edit: now now no need for insults. You don't insult ignorant people you enlighten them. If they refuse enlightenment you simply let them think they are right "never argue with an idiot for they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" That may be your problem dealing with ignorant people because you don't seem to be very good at it

as far as enlightening me I ask what is the "left" your response was go to Norway which is beyond my means.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 22:25: Message edited by: Safey ]

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Would this be a good time to ask Safey to share?

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feel free to jump in

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

edit: now now no need for insults. You don't insult ignorant people you enlighten them.
I find it ironic that you think the poor should have to work for their money, but you don't want to have to work to find your own information. I guess your principles are good enough for others to live by, but not for you.

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

edit: now now no need for insults. You don't insult ignorant people you enlighten them.
I find it ironic that you think the poor should have to work for their money, but you don't want to have to work to find your own information. I guess your principles are good enough for others to live by, but not for you.

You mean I have to work for my own money but not my own ideas. Let me clarify I don't really agree with your ideas but me trying to keep an open mind decide to give you a chance to properly explain them, when You claim misunderstood your beliefs. Your response was go to Norway and for some reason that doesn't help enlightened me. Now I'm not going to research ideology that I don't agree with in hopes of convince myself of it. Listen too and see if it has merit yes, do an exhaustive study on it no.

I believe everyone one who can work should work, with the understanding that occasionally people will have bad days and need some help.

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Now I'm not going to research ideology that I don't agree with in hopes of convince myself of it. Listen too and see if it has merit yes, do an exhaustive study on it no.
And that's what's wrong with the world. If you don't spend at least as much time researching viewpoints that disagree with your own as those that agree with it, you're being intellectually dishonest.

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Now I'm not going to research ideology that I don't agree with in hopes of convince myself of it. Listen too and see if it has merit yes, do an exhaustive study on it no.
And that's what's wrong with the world. If you don't spend at least as much time researching viewpoints that disagree with your own as those that agree with it, you're being intellectually dishonest.

If I was intellectually dishonest I wouldn't be in this forum or in this conversation. You are simply unwilling to explain your view points. For your information I have read my fair share of political arguments from both sides of the fence. You don't even give too much to go one. Your answer is go to Norway. What about Norway? Are their any media about Norway that you would recommend? Any books that explain your ideals? Do you give me any of this info? No you don't. Don't make me start to wonder why you won't explain what the "left" is. You might not like the idea that pops into my head.

To claim everything I know about a subject is wrong and not give an explanation is a sign of arrogance.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 23:32: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

To claim everything I know about a subject is wrong and not give an explanation is a sign of arrogance.
I never claimed that everything you knew was wrong. For me to claim that, I'd have to believe you knew anything in the first place.

If you must know, the reason I'm not bothering to seriously engage with you is that your statements so far give me reason to believe that you're a pathological liar. I'm too busy to attempt an honest conversation with someone who doesn't want an honest conversation with me, and so far you've shown no sign of good faith whatsoever.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 23:40: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

If you must know, the reason I'm not bothering to seriously engage with you is that your statements so far give me reason to believe that you're a pathological liar.[/QB]
I lack the self discipline to be a pathological liar plus its 2:30 in the morning. Plus if what you say is true then a good deal of soceity are pathological liars. Even if this were true how does that excuse a proper explanation. I have difficulty understanding how you can get the opinion someone is a pathological liar from a page and a half of a forum conversation. That not something many psychologists will came to be able to do.

I have been trying for the past few post trying to get you tell me what the "left" is instead I get you evading me. Now you accuse me of not trying to have an honest conversation.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 23:47: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

I have been trying for the past few post trying to get you tell me what the "left" is instead I get you evading me. Now you accuse me of not trying to have an honest conversation.
I'm concerned that if I try to tell you, you'll deliberately misinterpret me again. You need to convince me that you won't do that, and so far you're doing just the opposite.

[ Saturday, December 15, 2007 23:49: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

I'm concerned that if I try to tell you, you'll deliberately misinterpret me again. You need to convince me that you won't do that, and so far you're doing just the opposite.[/QB]
Where I have misinterpreted you? Have you even given me anything to misinterpret?

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75% of the US population thinks that improved social services are more important than tax cuts, but fewer than 10% of Congressmen agree. If you don't think that's a sign of something going badly wrong with your country's system of government, I don't know what more to say.

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nice change in topic that was getting repetitive. I never said I didn't think their was something badly wrong with or system of government. You have found the sign of a problem not the problem itself. Second (assuming the statics you have stated are true). What is the problem? You initially said I didn't know what the true left was, I ask you to elaborate you didn't.

Now the problem with America and the world in general(as I see it), is that every political party:Left, right, middle, center, ect has an ulterior motive. You claim that the Left have the best interest of all the poor and that my view of the left is misconstrued. I don't see the left doing anything to solve the problem and you have done nothing to convince me that their motives are in my best interest. Nor have I seen anything to convince me that the left or right are fundamentally different.

[ Sunday, December 16, 2007 00:13: Message edited by: Safey ]

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

nice change in topic that was getting repetitive. I never said I didn't think their was something badly wrong with or system of government. You have found the sign of a problem not the problem itself. Second (assuming the statics you have stated are true). What is the problem? You initially said I didn't know what the true left was, I ask you to elaborate you didn't.
The left are those who believe that your ability to meet your basic needs in life shouldn't depend on your ability to please others. It's a pretty simple concept, I think.

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