This probly belongs on WoTC, but...
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 07:11
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To further decrease my respectability(bet you thought I couldn't get it any lower), I took up playing Dungeons and Dragons. After a while, it decided that it would be fun to play a Shaper in D&D. Since no D&D class even comes close to doing what I Shaper can, I had to make my own. I had origonally intended to do one where the creations were template-based, but that would have required entirely too much effort, so instead I made one with a more flexable point-based entirely creation system. It origonally had spells, but they were later taken away for the simple fact that they made the class a little too power and also weren't actually needed(bonus points to whoever can figure out why). And I also added a couple of abilities that I thought a Shaper should be able to do if they actually existed. This class has actually been extensively tested and this encarnation is suprisingly balanced and not too weak or too powerful(despite the lack of spells) Hit Points: d6 Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod Weapons: Simple and 1 of player's choice Armor: None Class Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Spot, Listen, Knowledge Nature, Knowledge Arcana, Craft, Profession, Intimidate, Concentration Essence: 5 + Con Mod/lv and additional +5 at lvs 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18[/i] Create/Absorb Life: A Shaper can create living beings as a full round action. Each creation draws from the Shaper's Essence Pool and has various limitations based on the creator's Shaper class lv and the creation's hit dice. As a move action an Shaper may release a creation from her telepathic control, allowing her to regain the Essence used to create the creature about 8 hours after it is released. Also, as a standard action, an Shaper may choose to absorb a creation under her control to regain its essence. It should be noted that the control of a creature can be perminently severed through spells like charm monster or charm person(if the creature is humanoid), any strong mindcontrol powers, or giving the creature Immunity to effects. An Shaper may make an attempt to get the creature to return to the Shaper's control using Concentration(DC 10 + 1/2 creature's hit dice -minimum 11-). Non-sentient creations or those with Immunity to Mind Effects(which makes them incapable of being controlled via telepathic bond) are beyond an Shaper's ability to regain control of. Also, even though control is technically regained, it is not as anywhere near as good as the origonal control was and creations will no longer sacrifice themselves for their master and are less willing to do the master's bidding and thus a Concentration check must be made every time a major command is given to actually get the creation to do it(same dc as previously noted). Note, an Shaper can choose to roll a Concentration check instead of rolling the Creation's Will Save to defeat a hostile party's attempt doing Mind Control and similar effects to the Creation. Limitation, a Shaper can only control a number of creations equal to her ranks(not over-all modifier) in Concentration. Controlling any more than that will deal 1 point of temporary ability damage to the Shaper's Int Score per minute for every creature exceeding her control limit. Alter Creature: Through extensive training, a Shaper learns how to perminently enchance willing creatures whether creations or not, though they are far more effective working on creations. A Shaper can only enhance a creature once(a single session of enhancements). Enhancements are bestowed with increased limitations(ie., things that can be given to a creation once per Shaper class can only be given once per every two class lvs) Bestowing Enhancements also drains from the Shaper 4 times the normal Essence costs of the Enhancements. In addition to the increased limitations and Essence cost the Shaper takes 2d8 Con(or 1d4 Con for enhancing a creation. The damage requires a full month to recover from properly. The process takes one hour to complete, after which the Shaper must roll a fort save equal to 1/3 the total Essence used to enhance the creature minus remaining Essence(this is before taking the Con damage). If the Shaper fails the save, she immediately losses conciousness and remains unconcious for 1 week. If the Shaper is reduced to a negative amount of Essence and/or hit points for whatever reason by the end of this process, she immediately dies(no save). Advanced Creation: Creations cost 3/4 their normal cost to make(minimum 1). This does not apply to enhancing creatures. Note: A Shaper can create creations with stats/traits lower than the minimum. However, this does not lower the point cost of the creation. Creature Creation Abilities and Traits name,(cost,limit),description Doesn't Sleep(1,Once) Creature does not have to sleep Doesn't Eat(3,Once) Doesn't have to eat because some overly complex process(up to player or DM-whoever's smarted- to come up with) Doesn't Breath(2,Once) Doesn't have to breath because some overly complex process(up to player or DM to come up with) +4 skill points(1,Hit Dice +3) Creature gains 4 + Int Mod skill points. Creature still has to be taught skills, unless they are skills the Shaper has training in, in which case the Shaper may give the creature ranks in any of those skills up to the Shaper's current ranks. Note: this still uses up the creature's skill points and increases creature creation time to 1 minute per skill bestowed, rather than taught. +1 stat(1, 2x Class lv per stat) Give creature +1 to one stat Natural Attack(1, Once per attack type) Give creature any one natural attack at 1d4 damage attack this can be a melee or a ranged attack, but the ranged attack is limited to a 30ft range Raise Nat Attack(1, 1/2 Hit Dice) Raise any one natural attack by a d Nat. Armor +3(1, 1/2 Hit Dice) Increase natural armor by 3 DR +1/Cold Iron (1, Class lv) Increases DR/Cold Iron by 1 DR +1/Silver(1, Class lv) Increases DR/Silver by 1 DR +1/-(3, Class lv) Increases DR/- by 1 DR +3/Magic(2, 1/2 Class lv) Increases DR/Magic by 3 +5 Hit Points(1, Class lv) Increase HP by 5 + Con Mod. Note this counts as a Hit Dice Wings(1, Once) Gains wings and fly speed of 2x landspeed w. good manueverability Magical Flight(2, Once) Gains a magical fly speed of 2x landspeed w. good manueverability Improved Flight(1, Once per Flight capability) improves flight to perfect flight Fast heal +1(1, Class Lv) Increases fast healing by 1/round Regen +1(2, 1/2 Class Lv) Increases regeneration by 1/round Increase Range(1, Class lv per attack) increase the range of any ranged attack by 10ft +10 to speed(1, Class lv per movement type) Increase speed of any 1 type by 10ft Energy Resistance(2, 1/2 Class lv per type) Increase resistance to 1 energy type by 5 Energy Immunity(10, Once per type) Gains immunity to 1 energy type Sustance/Effect(8, Once per substance/effect) Gains immunity to one sustance or effect(ie. poison, disease, paralysis, critical hits, lv drain, ect.) Poisoned Nat Atk(3, Once per attack) Gains natural poison, dealing 1d4 damage to one stat and attack 1d4/min afterwards. Fortsave is 5 + 1/2 of creation hit dice number. Total duration(rolls) for damage = 1/2 creation's number of hit dice(as in how many times in total a victim will take the poison damage). Damage from multiple hits does not stack, however duration increases by 25% each time victim is poisoned with the same poison Raise poison save(3, 1/5 class lv) Raises poison's fort save by 5 Raise poison damage(3, 1/5 class lv) Raises poison's damage by a d Glow(1, Once) Continually sheds a 20ft radius of light Increased Glow(1, 1/2 Class lv Increase glow's radius by 30ft Explodes(2, Once) Creature can upon death(or at will) explode dealing 1d6 points of one energy type Improved Explosion(2, 1/2 Class Lv Adds 1d6 to explosion damage Telepathic, lesser(2, Once) Creature can telepathically communicate with anyone it's Int mod times 10ft away(minimum 10ft) Telepathic(6, Once) Creature can telepathically communicate with anyone it's Int mod times 10mi away(minimum 10mi) Telepathic, greater(12, Once) Creature can telepathically communicate with anyone any distance away + 1 Base Attack(1, Class lv) Increases creature's base attack by 1 [/b]+ 1 Save(1, 1/2 Class lv per save)[/b] Increases one of the creature's saves by 1 Darkvision(2, Once) Able to see in both normal and supernatural darkness out to 60ft Low-light vision(1, Once) Gains the low-light vision ability See invisibility(2, Once) Able to see invisible creatures Aura Sight(4, Once) Able to see the auras of any creature/object. Can discern alignments. Character Feat(1, Class lv) Bestow upon creature 1 character feat, creature must meet requirements and train(unless the creator has that feat) to gain it. Symbiotic(2, Once) Creation can form a symbiotic relationship with another creature. Creation feeds off of the creature, but in return protects the host. Any creature that is immune to diseases can not be hosts for a symbiotic creation. Every 2 symbotic creations on a single host creature drain 1 temporary point/day of the host's Con score. Parasitic(2, Once) Creation latches on to another creature and drains 1/2 Creation's hit dice(minimum 1) hit points from the target creature a round. Note, creation can still attack while draining Hit Points. Greater Parasite(10, Once) Creation drains 1 point of Con from host creature an hour. "Trigger"(1,Once per ability) Puts some sort of control feature(player's choice) on a creation to activate/control one of the creature's abilities, regardless of whether or not the creature wants the ability to be used. Alter self(4, Once) Creature is able to change hair, eyes, skin color, ect. at will, a standard action Energy Aura(2, Once per energy type) Grants an Energy Aura dealing 1d3 within a 5ft radius Stronger Aura(2, Class lv) +1d3 to Energy Aura damage Wider Aura(2, 1/4 Class lv) +5 Aura radius Streching Limb(2, 1/2 Class lv) Increase Melee attack range by 5ft Spell-like ability(1x spell lv-min 1, Class lv per spell) Can use a spell as a spell-like ability once a day per total +1/Day. Spell-like ability(3x spell lv, Once per spell) Can use a spell as a non-healing spell-like ability at will, max spell lv is 1/2 creation's hit dice(min lv 1, max lv 6) Healing Spell-like(4x,spell lv, Once per spell) Can use a spell as a healing spell-like ability at will, max spell lv is 1/2 creation's hit dice(min lv 1, max lv 6) Note: Any abilities have a caster lv equal to the creature's hit dice and the spell level is equal to the character's 1/2 Shaper class levels(max nine) or the spell lv of the spell-like ability. All abilities are supernatural unless otherwise stated. Also: Creations can be made to be any size category, provided the creature's stats meet the minimum requirements [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 07:13: Message edited by: Ktgsvgnfgn ] -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 07:36
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Yeah, this belongs on the WotC boards. (EDIT: After some thinking, I've decided to reopen this. You probably won't get real constructive criticism here, though.) [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:19: Message edited by: Imban ] Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7992
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 14:03
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I love the idea, I've been personaly trying to convert avernum to DnD, but i cant think of racial modifiers for sliths and if i should give them level ajustments -------------------- Slate Beauty I Look Down From Castle of the Winds Posts: 19 | Registered: Thursday, February 1 2007 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 14:33
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Not sure I like the "1 weapon proficiency of player's choice" bit. You'll probably want to restrict it to 1 martial weapon, as you probably don't really want Shapers getting free exotic weapon proficiencies. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 14:56
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Ktgsvgnfgn: Looks good. I don't think I'd ever do a Geneforge-based campaign, but it looks adaptable enough to be placed in any fantasy setting. Critical_Failure: I think an Avernum-to-D&D conversion has been attempted before, and there might be threads on Spiderweb about it. A Google search turns up a thread on the 3rdEdition forums on Slithzerikai (about three quarters down the page, look for the creepy four-eyes avatar). The relevant part is: quote:Later on, I stumbled upon this, which features a lot of Avernum specific creatures; probably the most comprehensive one out there. Eventually, I stumbled across a link to a Spiderweb archived thread. The quality of this one doesn't see so great though; mostly just lists information from the games instead of converting it into d20. -------------------- Caution - Risk of Fire - Label on a Duraflame fireplace log. [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 14:57: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 17:45
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There's also this attempt. Mostly I think the races break down because in Exile/Avernum they're balanced against humans by being stronger in a few areas and receiving less experience. That doesn't really match the usual D&D approach to humanoids, but Avernum doesn't point out any real balancing weaknesses. Hence the various +1 LA variations. —Alorael, who objects to having a shaper class that is essentially unable to do anything. It's really just an excuse to bring creations into the fray. Besides, Geneforge doesn't seem to have any shapers who don't throw magic around too. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 18:50
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quote:Now there's an idea: how about the Shaper as a spellcaster prestige class that sacrifices a few levels of spellcasting progression for the ability to Shape? You might want to look at animal-companion-focused druid/ranger PrCs like the Beastmaster for inspiration. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 21:20
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Not too bad... Using the animal companion stuff would be even harder to try to make work than this. A prestige class version would be a perfect way to incorperate spells, but it's only good if you can get to said levels(since a lot of DMs like to do lv 1 games), but I should work on one anyway. I think a good way to do that is to have it build off an existing caster class and the class I've already made. Btw, since no one's figured it out. Basically, most of my uses of that class involved making equipment out of creations. You don't really need magic when you can make stuff like Armor, Blades, the Batons(only doesn't need ammo) Need a spell?! Make a creation just for the sole purpose of casting that spell and then absorb it when you're done. At low lvs, a few creations that use summon monster and cure light wounds very liberally should be just enough to barely compensate for your obvious weakness(being in something that at least vaguely resembles a party also helps) Most importantly, take the Leadership feat(Especially if you are solo-ing). Using the creation equivilent lv conversion that I made(but didn't post, but can if someone actually wants it), you can have creations as followers. And if you get some kind of fighter type person to follow you around, it's like having a Guardian only not quite as cool. At the very least, the cohort can further help to compensate for your own character's taking hits like a 3 year old child and not being able to personally dish out damage worth anything. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 21:22
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Ack... it posted twice... oh well... [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 21:25: Message edited by: Ktgsvgnfgn ] -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Monday, March 12 2007 05:15
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quote:Sacrificing spellcasting for, well, anything is usually a pretty terrible trade. It'd have to be reaaaaally compelling, and even then it's a bit dodgy to give up more than a level or two at most. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, March 12 2007 05:34
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Unfortunately, the closest I've come to D&D is reading Order of the Stick et al, so I'll probably spout nonsense. But since the Shaper in Geneforge is exceptionally weak in melee, but average in magic, wouldn't it make sense if the prestige class cost fighter levels as well as spellcasting levels? -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, March 12 2007 09:16
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Shapers are terrible at fighting so you should have to be a fighter before you can shape? I don't get it. —Alorael, who has just noticed those last two little abilities in the shaping list, and they scream broken. Fireball and cure [severity] wounds at will? Not okay! He also can't figure out the mechanics of determining or changing the hit dice of creations or even why something that's just a living triggered fireball-at-will should have hit dice at all. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, March 12 2007 12:43
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Woah. I just checked who Ktgsvgnfgn is, and he's Lone Flame, isn't he? Blast from the freakin' past. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, March 12 2007 13:25
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quote:Prestige classes don't actually cost levels as such -- they just slow your future progression in, say, spellcasting, in return for giving you extra abilities that the base class doesn't. (Actually, some PrCs are just flat-out better than base classes with no meaningful tradeoffs, but let's not talk about those.) Given the Shaper's small hit die (might actually even want to bump it down to d4) and slow attack bonus progression, it's not going to be much of a fighter. By the way, if you want to know more about D&D, most of the core rules are available for free online: http://www.d20srd.org/ [ Monday, March 12, 2007 13:28: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
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written Monday, March 12 2007 14:29
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I've heard of this game but never played it. Anyone care to explain? Side note: Come visit Worf. He's started a topic. -------------------- You Shall Die Laughing: http://www.worfthecat.ermarian.net/converted The Roost: www.roost01.proboards104.com. Birds of a feather flock together. Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Monday, March 12 2007 16:44
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quote:The Hit Dice thing is the keep people from getting access to higher lv spells too quickly. The progression is similar to a Wizard's, but unlike the Wizard's caps off at lv 6 spells instead of 9(those would be far too powerful at will, even thought it would be expensive). I also justify needed HD requirements to give them certain spell-like(and other) abilities by saying that the HD represent how strong lv wise the creature is(a fact actually established in the Monster Manual) and that a level one creature shouldn't be able to use Fireball, period. And it should be noted that doesn't matter if you have a cure whatever spell going on every round, several people beating the hell out you is still several people beating the hell out of you. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, March 12 2007 17:43
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quote:See what I mean by nonsense? I got the concept the wrong way around apparently. :P -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, March 12 2007 18:42
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quote:A lower cap is a terrible balancing mechanism if progression is still as fast. If it's slower it might work, but... Harm and Heal at will? Or even the more thematically appropriate Summon Monster? I question the balance strenuously, and I haven't even gone looking hard for broken combos. quote:Agreed, but some of these creatures really aren't creatures at all. Something that you make solely to pick up and point at someone and hurl fireballs needs to have a bunch of hit dice? quote:[/b] Except now there's really no reason to rest because after combat you're fully healed. And healing every round is not nearly the scariest thing that can be done. —Alorael, who still doesn't have an answer to his real question. You haven't explicitly stated how many hit dice creations get, and that's important both for regular shapers and for broken Wand of Repeated Death shapers. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, March 12 2007 23:43
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quote:This is just a comment about your moniker. Did you perchance get the idea from xkcd, or do both derive from something else? -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, March 13 2007 01:47
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quote:'Trapped in an X factory, please send help' is a pretty ancient joke in English. I believe it was originally a fortune cookie factory, but I could be wrong. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, March 13 2007 10:04
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I agree that the class seems a bit broken. A part of what balances wizards and sorcerors is that they have fairly limited access to the spells available; either through a limited repertoire (the sorceror), or through the limits of memorization (the wizard). Also, unlimited healing? That's just broken. Although it might be different in your campaign settings, usually careful husbanding of hitpoints over the course of an adventure plays a big role in strategic choices. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Tuesday, March 13 2007 10:43
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I suppose the unlimited healing thing can be problematic... I never really had to use it in any meaningful way, since I usually play characters with at least regen 1 when I can and when I can't, characters that can heal themselves through some other means. And as far as being powerful is concerned, when Kitten the Barbarian Frenzied Berserker is in the party the life creation guy just doesn't quite compare. The other day we did a game and Kitten(at lv 17) single handedly took out a Balor(CR 20), a Pitfiend(CR 20), and most of a Solar Angel(CR 23)... in one fight. Also, am I the only one who's noticed how much the early summon monster spells suck. As best as I can tell from the input I've recieved so far, I should lower the spell limit to 5th level damaging spells(to keep out things like Disintigrate, 4th for healing(to remove things like Heal, Harm, and Raise Dead) and add a 3rd category Utility Spells(capping off at 6th lv) for stuff like teleport and move earth. What do y'all think? -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, March 13 2007 10:52
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[Edit: xkcd is a wonderful comic, but this was in fact inspired by an unrelated conversation. I can't rule out subconscious influence, I guess.] I think there's a good chance you're basing the balance of the shaper on a prestige class that's also broken. I also think you're reaching for the wrong balancing mechanism. Instead of capping lower, give a limited list of spells that can be used. Maybe make them usable only so often. For instance, at a certain shaper level, you can make a baton that casts fireball once per hour. At the same level you could maybe make a baton that launches a single 1d4+1 magic missile at will. —Alorael, who thinks anything at will is dangerous unless it's far below what normally gets used at your level. Unlimited healing is quite possibly unbalanced even if it's just repeated cure light wounds. There's still no explanation for when or how you get a 5 HD creation as opposed to a 1 HD one. [ Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:02: Message edited by: help I'm trapped in a PDN factory ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
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written Tuesday, March 13 2007 11:03
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quote:Considering that just by existing a creation has a hit dice, and every time you increase the hit dice by 5 + Con mod that is effectively raising the hit dice by 1, I think you might have the answer. I probly should've made that part higher up on the list. My apologies. EDIT: Kitten was just one example of the total possible examples I could give. [ Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:06: Message edited by: Ktgsvgnfgn ] -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, March 14 2007 04:15
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If "Kitten" took out those three creatures simultaneously single-handedly, then your DM isn't using them correctly. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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