Physics Solution
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 01:03
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Very stupid, but moderately amusing.  Eh. Maybe I'm just tired. -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2339
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 01:29
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AHA! My elephant! I've been looking for him for a while, now! Indeed, that IS stupid. But it made me laugh anyway! I laughed so hard that my ears hurt. -------------------- -Zephyr Tempest, your personal entertainer Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 01:29
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That's a pretty damned easy question. What are they teaching you kids in school these days? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 01:37
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I think the elephant is supposed to be facing to the left. Unless he needs a drink. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 01:47
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Square root of (0.3 g). 5. Meters. A better question is to list as many reasons as you can think of why those answers would be wrong for any realistic scenario. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 02:10
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quote:You know, Thuryl, some people just don't understand these things. The fact that you think it' easy, doesn't mean that others think it's easy. I don't really understand it, but then again, I'm not that good in physics. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 02:28
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quote:No need to be sensitive; I was going for humour. Evidently I failed. Part B really is very easy, though. Think about it: you have a frictionless slope and an ideal spring. No energy is being lost from the system anywhere, so as the weight falls its gravitational potential energy is converted with 100% efficiency to kinetic energy, which is converted to elastic potential energy stored in the spring, and then the whole process happens again in reverse; the weight has to come back to where it started. And if you understand part B and know how to calculate gravitational potential energy, you can do part A. Next time you see me acting like a dick, just assume I'm trying and failing to be funny and ignore me, mkay? It seems like I'm much better at making people hate me than I am at entertaining them. :( [ Sunday, January 28, 2007 02:42: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 07:15
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quote:I quite agree. Although the question, as phrased, is more or less elementary (meaning that the average U.S. high school student has at least seen such a thing before graduating), any comprable real life event would be full of issues that would make it a nighmare to predict. This, in fact, is my real problem with this kind of physics. Sometimes, when given such a question, I choose to answer it by including friction, air resistance, fluctuations in gravity based on altitude, flaws in the spring, and the possibility of a vacuum metastability event occuring part way through. -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 34
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 08:46
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quote:Cheer up, Thuryl! You're kind of like Algernon or Jack in The Importance of Being Ernest. -------------------- Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. 'Spiderweb Software' anagrammmed: 'Word-bereft A**wipe' Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 09:01
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Ya gotta love vacuum collapse. But now I'm kind of in a dilemma. On the one hand, simple little models are ghastly frauds. Dragging generations of students through exercises like this one only gives them the impression that science is an arbitrary ritual where we ignore reality in favor of made-up games. No wonder the lay public has such a naive view of genuine science, which really does try to understand the real world, and is therefore enormously more difficult than people imagine. On the other hand, simple little calculations like the one intended for this problem are glorious triumphs of the human intellect. People like Plato and Aristotle would probably gladly have given body parts to see what today every high school kid is dragged through willy nilly. So is schoolbook physics triumph or travesty? I'm really of two minds. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 09:46
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quote:I'm going to have to go with basic Newtonian physics. —Alorael, who thought that was pretty obvious from the question. The original question, that is. Thuryl is obviously an ignorant hack. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 09:51
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quote:Then I calculated it the right way after all. The fact that it was a slope made me doubt. Aw, nobody hates you... It's just that I have such a guy in my math class, but he really seems to mean what he says. But okay, as of now I will not take you seriously when you act like a dick, even though you might be exploding of irritating :P -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 10:15
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quote:Well, these calculations are good approximations in certain circumstances. It's just that there are a lot more circumstances out there. The single most positive experience I have ever had in a lab — in fact, the only positive experience I have ever had in a lab — was the very first lab of high school physics, right after we learned the equations of motion. We had a ball bearing and a Hot Wheels track on a table, and we were supposed to roll the ball bearing down the track, measure its speed somehow, and predict where it would land when it rolled off the table. Then we put a small cup, just barely larger than the ball bearing, on the spot where we thought the ball bearing would hit. Lo and behold, it worked. With just the equations of motion, we were able to predict where a ball bearing rolling off a Hot Wheels track would actually land. It was probably the greatest confirmation of basic science that I have ever seen. So these calculations do work in a particular variety of circumstances. It's just that thing can get a lot more complicated. In that case, I think that basic, Newtonian physics is a good thing, as long as the teacher states fairly regularly, "And there's a heck of a lot more that one could consider here, but it doesn't factor into the situations that we're looking at." Besides, what else would you do? Try to teach statistical mechanics or advanced mechanics to someone who hasn't even seen F=ma? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 11:38
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The best part of physics was our analysis of Rube-Goldberg machines in Physics 2. I mean, why else would it be practical to determine the coefficient of friction for an iron weight against melted candle wax? -------------------- The Silent Assassin agrees that there is, in fact, an Elephant in the way. He put it there. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 12:01
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The Newtonian physics that are taught in high school serve as excellent approximations on the small scale (though of course not on the microscopic scale). Often extremely simple equations and models can predict simple outcomes, and so there is worth in that. High school physics is mainly a triumph in my opinion because a little knowledge in this case is better than complete ignorance. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 12:19
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Additionally, it can happen that an simplified, unrealistic model of one situation, turns out to be good, useful model of another situation. For example the model of a 2-dimensional, inviscid, irrotational fluid flow - which is too simple to accurately describe much in aerodynamics - is nonetheless a good predictor the flow of thin film of very viscous flow (the Hele-Shaw cell). This is a good way in to lubrication theory. -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 15:28
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quote:Okay, for the record, this is not something I did. :P I wasn't altogether great in physics, but I'm sure that if I tried I could probably figure out this problem. As it stands, I have little to no desire to attempt to do it. College physics is next semester. Until then, it will get neglected. -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 19:06
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I'm seen worse reactions to a problem. I was grading an exam where the student had erased his work after being unable to complete the problem. The professor gave partial credit since he was on the right track and took off points for "being a confused student." Idealized problems are used to teach basic concepts. Real world problems are over in the engineering classes and advanced classes. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 19:13
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You need to learn the fundamentals with all the oversimplifications before you can tackle real world problems. Making problems more complicated, is generally not useful as there is really no new basic concepts to teach in doing so. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 19:16
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If you prefer to start building the pyramid of knowledge from the apex down, then go right ahead. No one would attend such a class, but at least you could call yourself professor. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 20:05
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I have used that very basic physics to determine roughly how fast and how hard I would hit the ground if I jumped off the roof to escape from the wasps I disturbed with my painting. I concluded that hitting the ground would hurt less than getting stung a lot and that I'd still be able to keep running. Sometimes ideal approximations can save a life, or at least a dignity, or whatever it was I got out of that. —Alorael, who was once upon a time given a problem on a test that required determining whether a plane of a given wingspan at a given height could fit into a semicircular hangar of a given radius. A friend came up with a better alternative to doing the math that was coincidentally a highly physical perspective: any plane will fit in any hangar if enough force is applied. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Sunday, January 28 2007 23:28
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quote:Your friend is obviously a very intelligent person. EDIT: That's not sarcasm. Neither is this. [ Sunday, January 28, 2007 23:29: Message edited by: Poon ] -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Monday, January 29 2007 05:49
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Ha ha, finally looked at this thread and saw the elephant. Not terribly funny but the replies... -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Monday, January 29 2007 12:22
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Bah. Who cares about the reality of the situation? Mathematics is a transcendental experience. -------------------- Belkar: I have an idea. It starts with "s" and ends with "litting their throats." Elan: No! No killing. Belkar: Technically, you mean no MORE killing. (OotS #72) Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |