If You Were President...
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 21:01
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TM and Alec have some good ideas. My main disagreemensts are: 1. Just throwing money at the problem seldom helps unless you attempt to solve the underlying issues. 2. Where will you get the money in the first place? Here are my opinions on issues you've raised. (Together with suggested money sources for all programs.) Education. I wrote a page-long rant here, but I'll save it for appropriate thread. Short summary is that American system is totally messed up and you need to completely reform it to get anywhere. (I've studied in both American and Russian schools so I can compare a system that works to the one that doesn't.) Public Healthcare. I completely agree. HMOs are as bad as government beurocracies already and America is already spending more money on healthcare per person than the countries with government healthcare do. Get money for it by making people and employers pay premiums similar to the ones they do already. Foreign Aid: You have to invest enough money into the countries to help them fully develop their economies and educate the people and make sure the money isn't being stolen by corrupt officials if you want the aid to have any effect. Otherwise you'll just end up with 5 times more starving people when the generation you've just saved from starvation grows up and has their own kids. Get money for it by cutting military budget. US shouldn't be the world policeman and the army doesn't need new genration of stealth bombers. Nobody in the world can compete against the current one. However, the mess in Iraq is likely to eat up a lot of resources for many years to come, so I don't see much foreign aid happening in forseeable future. Affermantive Action: How many Asians are you going to kick out of universities to make room for Blacks? Racial quotas never solved any problem and there is no way to set them without most people feeling discriminated against. Instead, I'd focus on helping all poor children regardless of race. If you give all poor people opportunites for education, loans to start their own businesses, etc, black people will do fine. And I don't know about your part of the country, but I haven't seen much racism in California. Public transportation. Yes, and get money for it by cutting oil and agricultural subsidies. Massive tax hikes for "the rich". 1. Define "the rich". 2. Define "massive tax hikes". 3. How are you going to prevent "the rich" from replacing their American citizenship with foreign one? (Nobody smart enough to get a million dollars would want to live in a country that takes away most of his money.) Strengthening welfare. I partially agree, but you need to make sure that sitting on welfare isn't more appealing than taking a minimum-wage job. Nuclear disarmament. Alec gave a perfect argument for why we only need 20 nukes, instead of several hundreds. Nuclear power. Yes. Along with solar, wind, etc. And cutting our consumption will also be necessary. Living Wage. Yes, as long as you remember that 1000$ in a rural village will buy you a lot more stuff than 1000$ in San Francisco. So you have to set these wages on a regional level. Labor unions. I was under impression they are quite powerful already and are one of the main power bases of the Democratic party. Disestablishing religion. Considering that America already has stronger separation of Church and State than many European countries, I think we are doing fine on this point. Global labor laws. Yes, as long as you remember that 10$ in Malaysia can buy way more than 10$ in USA. EDIT: Either this thread is moving very quickly, or I type very slowly. On the question of nukes in the hands of countries like Iran, my main problem with them is making sure they will not end up in the hands of people like Bin Laden, who will be quite happy to start a nuclear war. Even Russian nukes scare me a lot, because I know how rampant bribery is in Russia and how much military equipment "disappeared" when Russian troops left East Germany. Countries like Iran would be even worse than Russia at guarding their nukes. (Just look at Pakistan and its scientists who were helping anybody who'd pay.) And what will happen to Iranian nukes if there is another revolution? So with every unstable country going nuclear, chances of these weapons falling into the hands of someone who will trigger a war grow dramatically. [ Wednesday, May 03, 2006 21:12: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 21:15
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Re: Massive taxes on the massively rich. Without thinking it through, in terms of actual income to taxing authorities, tax brackets should be as follows. Earnings <=$20,000; Tax at 5% $20,000 < Earnings <=$50,000; Tax at 15% $50,000 < Earnings <=$80,000; Tax at 35% $80,000 < Earnings <=$120,000; Tax at 50% Earnings over $120,000; Tax at 95% If there is no incentive to earn more than $120,000 then I would presume that people may seek jobs that they like, rather than those that earn them obscene gobs of cash. Because really, who needs more than $120,000 annually? This is all part of the Salmon for President 2008 campaign press release. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 21:16
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If I were Prime Minister of Australia, and I could get parliament to do what I wanted, I would: Send troops to Sudan. Hopefully somebody standing up and taking action would convince everyone else to pull their heads out of the sand. As Zeviz said, overhaul the education system. It sucks, hard. I'd be curious to hear what makes the Russian system so much better. Get a better system for dealing with refugees. One that doesn't involve locking them up for 5 years. I'd also ban abortion, but please, nobody start a flame-fest over that one. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, May 3 2006 21:58
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quote:I agree that some overhauls are necessary, but fewer than you might think. Schools are defined by their students, and urban youth have already suffered far too much at the hands of affluent caucasians at that point to accurately "develop/test their merit." And urban public schools do NOT have enough funding, even if there are problems with the spending. quote:...thank you, Malthus. News flash: These people are already having kids, and the way things stand, they are almost guaranteed to die of starvation, nevermind live to any decent age before doing so. Self-sufficiency will be a convenient thing, but it's not the be-all and end-all. I reserve that for preventing the millions upon millions of deaths that we in the civilized world sorta just spit on. quote:Eating up a lot of resources? What, you mean those $200 cans of soda that KBR officials sip on in the walled-off Green Zone of Baghdad? The costs of Iraq are so massively inflated that it's not even funny. Even if we kept on using the same stuff, we'd do it for a lot less if we didn't go through the most bald-facedly evil cads on the face of the planet to get it. quote:Wo-ho-hoah, racism. I wasn't thinking of kicking out Asian-Americans. I was thinking of kicking out Whites. (Or heaven forbid, increase spending and add more seats.) quote:You know, I went to a private school, and one time in class, Affirmative Action was brought up. And I swear, I was the only person in that room who was in favor of it. YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN how those people all turned around me and the teacher like fricking vultures. These rich, white, male, privately-educated pricks honestly had the balls to claim that they were being persecuted against. Because, you know, all these dangerous black men are coming to take their Ivy League seats. My opinion is that white folks should get the fuck over themselves. Now. Affirmative Action isn't discrimination. Rendering African-Americans as a permanently unskilled class through a combination of inequitable "free market" job hirings and an educational system that favors the rich is discrimination. Help the poor? Fine. You think the quota system needs work? That could be a seperate issue. But I cannot help but wretch at the criticisms people raise against Affirmative Action. It tends to be the most racist vitriol I could ever hope to hear. quote:...oh, right. How cute. Competition, the solution to all ills. quote:...are you kidding me? San Francisco, who put all of its blacks on the other side of the bridge? Or Los Angeles, who put all of its hispanics in the most smog-infested areas of the city? Or are you merely talking about Berkeley, where Synagogues' windows get shattered? (Heck, I'd be curious about Berkeley's demographics.) Yeah, yeah. Milwaukee has an unemployment rate of over 50% for Black males. But California is by no means pure. quote:Property tax. Unless the rich want to live in Mexico. Anyway, your reasoning is: "Don't tax the rich because they'll just get out of it, tax the poor because they're dumbasses?" Or are you saying tha there's some miracle value at which the rich actually accept taxes? The rich will ALWAYS try to evade. It's our job to corner them by any means necessary, chain them to a wall, cut open their insides and send power drills through their eyes. Or tax them. Either is fine by me. quote:Then the minimum-wage needs to stop sucking so badly. quote:1. Quite powerful? Then why aren't working conditions where they should be? 2. FYI, the democratic party is a bunch of rich, white men, and they don't actually care about poor people. quote:If a preacher in Europe says that we must assassinate Hugo Chavez, does anyone freak out? And yet if Pat Robertson says it, Chavez actually gets scared. Why is that? If we aren't a christian nation, then why does bush quote the bible so often in justifying taking over Iraq? quote:That would make you the first christian leader to ever publically take down genocide. quote:  -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 04:42
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I don't have much time so here it goes. "I agree that some overhauls are necessary, but fewer than you might think. Schools are defined by their students, and urban youth have already suffered far too much at the hands of affluent caucasians at that point to accurately "develop/test their merit." You seem to forget something. When America's schools where among the best was when they were run by the local community. "And urban public schools do NOT have enough funding, even if there are problems with the spending.' Why don't you try spending how much money they have. Then, suddenly you would start feeling rich. "...thank you, Malthus. News flash: These people are already having kids, and the way things stand, they are almost guaranteed to die of starvation, nevermind live to any decent age before doing so. Self-sufficiency will be a convenient thing, but it's not the be-all and end-all. I reserve that for preventing the millions upon millions of deaths that we in the civilized world sorta just spit on." I would like to see proficciant way of getting money to them. "Eating up a lot of resources? What, you mean those $200 cans of soda that KBR officials sip on in the walled-off Green Zone of Baghdad? The costs of Iraq are so massively inflated that it's not even funny. Even if we kept on using the same stuff, we'd do it for a lot less if we didn't go through the most bald-facedly evil cads on the face of the planet to get it." Somehow I must have missed this one's point.... Wo-ho-hoah, racism. I wasn't thinking of kicking out Asian-Americans. I was thinking of kicking out Whites. (Or heaven forbid, increase spending and add more seats.) Your a racist? What they should do is make everybody equal. this is what I was trying to say in my last post. Oh, and by the way I am not a racist I know pretty well almost any black that is close to us and we've met. You know, I went to a private school, and one time in class, Affirmative Action was brought up. And I swear, I was the only person in that room who was in favor of it. YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN how those people all turned around me and the teacher like fricking vultures. These rich, white, male, privately-educated pricks honestly had the balls to claim that they were being persecuted against. Because, you know, all these dangerous black men are coming to take their Ivy League seats. "My opinion is that white folks should get the **** over themselves. Now. Affirmative Action isn't discrimination. Rendering African-Americans as a permanently unskilled class through a combination of inequitable "free market" job hirings and an educational system that favors the rich is discrimination." Another anti-white racist.... IF everybody would give everybody a chance to prove he was the best person for the job then your argument would not make sence. But, there WILL ALWAYS be racists either against whites or against black or asians. The next argument I ommitted since where I live there is only one class anybody has any problem with and that one does have some issues to solve. But, on the whole I like where I live. EDIT: Sent before I had finished. "Property tax. Unless the rich want to live in Mexico. Anyway, your reasoning is: "Don't tax the rich because they'll just get out of it, tax the poor because they're dumbasses?" Or are you saying tha there's some miracle value at which the rich actually accept taxes? The rich will ALWAYS try to evade. It's our job to corner them by any means necessary, chain them to a wall, cut open their insides and send power drills through their eyes." I am against this completely. that is all I can wright right now finish it later. [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 04:47: Message edited by: Major ] -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 06:42
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Wow. Tax people to the point of idiocy and throw money at problems and hope they go away. I'm surprised you're so totally clueless as to suggest that this works, but then again I am talking about TM. The government should not be responsible for everything. In fact, it should be responsible for the barest necessities. It should be in charge of keeping the country together and all that falls under that. That's it. I'm surprised that you failed to learn that that is the premise under which the seperate provinces were joined to become "these united states of America". Heck, even I, an Israeli know that. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 06:50
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1. Outsourcing of tech jobs overseas will decrease the value of technical degrees. 2. Immigration policies under development will reduce labor pool through imprisonment and deportation. 3. Glut of unfilled low wage, unskilled jobs will increase wages, to be filled by unskilled products of American secondary education. 4. Biggest growth industry in the next 15 years will be prisons. Race is on to build the better mousetrap. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 07:43
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You know, I'd gladly participate in the fray, but it's really time to remind you all to cool it a little. I feel with you; it is really frustrating to each of you when the other side seems to be SO FREAKING DENSE, but working off steam is not what a debate is for. quote:I know it's hard to argue when you are both angry and restricted in your choice of words, but TM, please don't do this. I like your posts and your wit on this board, and I think it sucks when you get banned on a pointless matter of procedure. quote:This is still within any liberal interpretation of the CoC, and I can't fault you for fighting fire with fire, but you're not going to accomplish anything this way. Perhaps aim for higher standards than the opponent; it will add strength to your points. Just saying. --- Even if I didn't quote you personally, the same applies. Honestly, people - Nationstates General is a pit of burning vitriol, but I think we, that is Spiderweb General, can do better than this. We're less numerous, we know each other better, and we can damn well hold a worthwhile debate. Or that's what I dream of, anyway. :rolleyes: -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7021
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 07:57
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A lot of you people have too much free time. -------------------- "My Mazaradi goes 185 They Took my License Now I don’t drive But I got me a limo And I sit in the back Lock all the doors In case I’m attacked.” Posts: 54 | Registered: Wednesday, April 12 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 08:22
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Wow, what a firetrap of a thread. I'm going to stay out of most of this because most of it will either be preaching to the choir or yelling at people whose ears are plugged. A few points: quote:Sometimes racism is blunt and easy to spot (hate speech), sometimes it is a little harder to spot (racial favoritism with jobs or housing), and sometimes it is quite subtle but nonetheless destructive (unexpressed social attitudes). I grew up in the Bay Area, and while it may be an extremely liberal area, and it may be less racist than many places, there is absolutely quiet racism there. Walk up to ANY bay area high school during lunch, find a group of Asian kids with no white kids around, and ask them if they feel accepted by their white peers. Now go ask their white peers if they feel like the first clique excludes them. This is a consistent pattern. Now we have enough anti-racist programming in schools that I don't think this is a serious problem; most of these kids actively want to not be racist, and that's enough for me. But it goes beyond the kids. Compare the schools in Palo Alto and East Palo Alto. Ask anyone who lives in a mansion in Hillsborough what they'd do if a black man knocked on their door. A lot of people would give enlightened answers. But some wouldn't. quote:Short answer: not anymore. They once were, but labor unions are a relatively small player in politics these days. quote:I agree with everything TM has said about Affirmative Action, and I've had similar experiences myself, being the one white kid sticking up for it. However, let's be clear: Affirmative Action IS discrimination. It's just that it is by FAR the lesser evil, compared to allowing the effects of racism to persist without an attempt at making things better. I would never claim that it is right. It is simply less wrong. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 08:23
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quote:Says the noob who starts pointless polls. :rolleyes: -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 10:02
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quote:In that case, every multi-million dollar mansion will become a "corporate office". Good luck writing a tax code that will be able to distinguish between a real office building and an "office building" that happens to include 4 "recreation rooms" (bedrooms) and a "small yard" (large garden). quote:I guess you were not aware of the context: Asian Americans are way overrepresented in California's top universities. In some of them they comprise over 50% of the student body, while their population in the state is far below 50%. So any racial quota you are going to impose will hit them much stronger than it hits whites. quote:Are you going to give up your chance to get into a good university to a less-qualified black person, or do you expect "those other whites" to do it? Do I think that everybody should have an equal opportunity to get into a good university or a good job? Yes. Do I think that I should have less of an opportunity because my skin color happens to be the same as the skin color of some racists? No. quote:And you yourself are a poor African American from an urban ghetto? If you believe in equality so much, what were you doing in a private school? quote:I agree. Let's start with you leaving your private school in a rich neighborhood and moving into an urban ghetto. You can't really expect others to do something you are unwilling to do yourself. quote:Because it makes Chavez look like a great hero opposing evil American imperialists. If getting scared didn't help his poll numbers, he'd ignore Robertson just like he'd ignore any other lunatic. quote:Because it helps him energize his fundamentalist supporters and most people who are bothered by Bible quotes wouldn't support him anyway. If his poll numbers dropped after quoting Bible, he'd stop doing it. quote:That point I disagree on. Asian Americans are doing very well despite facing almost as much racism as blacks. If people of all races are provided with equally good education (which isn't the case right now), the only thing racial quotas will do is perpetuate racism. Nothing would be as effective in training a generation of racists as giving students an impression that they failed to get into universities they wanted because minorities got preferential treatment. Did you take this damage into consideration when you think that affirmative action does more good than harm? And I have to ask you the same question I've asked TM: would you give up your place at your current university to a less qualified minority applicant in the name of affirmative action? EDIT: That's interesting: the auto-censor removed the f-word in my quote of TM's post. How did TM manage to post it in the first place? Or was the auto-censor turned on literally a few minutes ago? [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:15: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 11:02
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There are ways to get past the autocensor, involving ubb code. If you hit the quote button on his post, you will see this. If you copy and paste the post, you don't copy the ubb tags that outwit the censor, and you get censored. Bush has quoted the Bible incessantly since his election. His approval rating is also the lowest it have ever been - near 35% last time I heard. I am not suggesting a causal relationship, but still. -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 11:14
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Zeviz, I used that argument you made about Asians against affirmative action for years on end. But, I've changed my mind about that recently. The pattern with traditionally overprivileged minorities like the Asians and the Jews is that they have an extremely strong family structure which both emphasizes education and provides children a support structure so that they can pursue it without working. Blacks, on the other hand, had their traditional family structure absolutely annihilated during slavery and have yet to resurrect the tradition; just look at the statistics about black single mothers. Affirmative action in higher education, though, does nothing for the blacks it needs to be helping. It helps rich black girls from DC suburbs get into Columbia without taking any hard classes, but nothing for urban blacks. For it to be at all meaningful, it needs also to be income-based. TM, it is entirely ludicrous to divest the black community of all responsibilty for its present problems. I agree that assuming the privileged races have no obligation to help them is also ludicrous, but American black culture is toxic and contemptible. There, I said it. Ever heard a rap song? Ever worked with urban black males for a long time? I did; I went into it with an open mind, but it was like it was their mission in life to live up to every negative stereotype. It's the sad truth that slavery did damage to the black community that only the black community can undo. White people can't make black fathers stick around, even if it was white people who destroyed that tradition. (Let me say that I've met some counter-examples, but urban black culture is as bad as the stereotypes; more importantly, they were bad employees. This is just my personal experience; I'm sure there are white neighborhoods that produce just such malingerers. But, a lot of people hold wonderful, enlightened opinions about racial prejudice without any experience outside of their nice, diverse, but middle-class community. Let me tell you that you would be an idiot not to be afraid of the Ghetto. People there are cruel, and that's a fact.) There's an interesting example of the dynamics of situations like that in Prince George's County, Maryland. It's one of the few substantial all-black upper-middle-class enclaves out there, and there relationship with the urban black community in their county is even worse than with most white suburbs. Again, I am not a racist, that is just my experience. Of course, let me emphasize that white people are much more to blame, and have a lot to do. But "it's all the white man's fault" is patently false, counterproductive, and one of the biggest excuses the black community makes for not changing itself, and the white community makes for it. I mean, look what happened to Bill Cosby. Anyway, I'll just talk about urban planning, because that's the area where I have substantive knowledge to contribute. (And where I'd concentrate if I had any kind of executive power, to go back on topic). What I would do is apply affirmative action to housing, and ban any new development not featuring a minimum proportion of low-income housing. The best thing whites could do for poor blacks, and what they're least willing to do, the bastards, is share their space. If rich whites want to improve their neighborhood (and their public schools!), they're going to have to help poor blacks. Furthermore, living together may actually foster mutual respect, strikingly absent nowadays. I would also force mixed-use development; poor people actually might want to have work within walking distance. It goes without saying that mass transit is a must: tax the rich to get everyone where they need to go; don't let them buy their own private transportation. [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 11:56: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 11:17
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quote:That's a clever trick. I thought of some possible methods, but they were a lot more convoluted. quote:The drop in approval rating is due to the fact that no matter how good a demagogue you are, people will see through it eventually. (Unless you have complete controll of all mass media.) Considering all the things Bush did and didn't do, I assume anybody who would object to his Bible quotes has plenty of more important things to object to. EDIT: As for income-based affirmative action, I agree that some form of it is probably necessary until urban schools are fixed. EDIT2: On a ligher note, this is what I just saw on the board main page: quote: [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 11:47: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 11:25
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Alas, what have I created? Ah well. Time to jump into the flaming fiery flamepit! Joy! Being utterly and completely race-blind isn't going to solve any problems. If we could make all of society utterly race-blind, it would, but we can't. There's a definite inequality, and not doing anything is not going to magically solve the problem. Racial quotas, though, is wading pretty deep into hot water. Being rich, white, and privately educated isn't a crime and shouldn't be a crime. People aren't going to be happy if they're kicked out of a college and never did anything to deserve being kicked out. Plus, will a white harbor positive feelings about blacks if he thinks they got him kicked out of college? Alternate solutions, such as magnet schools, are good but can't really solve everything. I think that Affirmative Action should be implemented but only in very problematic areas. It might work as a temporary measure too. Game, set, match. Flame me! -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 11:58
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EDIT: While I wrote this, PoD person wrote something that is frankly just smarter than what I wrote. Oh well :) quote:Ah, this is where we disagree: I think we are using the term "racism" or "effects of racism" differently. When I talk about combatting the effects of racism, I mean fighting two categories of things: 1) effects of here and now racism, like job or housing discrimination 2) pervasive effects of past racism on a large scale, like economic, social, psychological, geographic, educational, and political (etc) marginalization Now, the second category certainly applies to Asians as well as blacks (and a host of other groups, some of whom are white). But that whole transcontinental transplantation + centuries of enslavement thing is a bit of a trump card. I'm not advocating special treatment for people based on what was done to their ancestors -- I think that's ridiculous. But if those acts in the far past have consequences that reach to the present day and affect the descendants, we need to recognize it. Yes, it's possible to go rags-to-riches in America, and it's possible to go riches-to-rags as well. But the fact is that people who have more money have a greater than 0 correlation of their kids ending up with more money. The same thing is true if you replace either instance of "money" with "education" or "social status," etc. Thank god, we do have some socioeconomic fluidity in this country, so over time these effects gradually fade. The status of African Americans today is almost incomparably better than it was 200 years ago. But the average black is still significantly poorer than the average white. The average black man is significantly more likely to have spent time in prison, too. These statistical differences are way too consistent to be random fluctuations. Very simply put, they are the result of centuries of slavery followed by centuries of racism. In fact, much of the reason things have changed is due to efforts such as affirmative action that attempt, crudely, to tip the scales back in favor of a group that has had the scales tipped away from it for a much longer time. It is not the only way to do things, and there are certainly rational arguments against it. In fact I agree with most of them. But in the end I have to use a practical measuring stick. I have to ask: is it more unfair to tip the scales like this, or not to tip them? And however crude a restorative it may be, I would rather tip them back. quote:Yes, I've certainly thought about that. I'll even admit that when I was 11 or 12, my own thinking was influenced in just the way you describe. I think it's a good argument. But as you yourself note, that "isn't the case right now." In my estimate, this kind of collateral damage is less critical than helping the people in the gutters up. (Yeah, yeah, I know that's a stupidly emotional and somewhat distorted expression to use, but you know what I mean.) quote:I'm out school now, but YES. I absolutely would have. The fact is that, despite all the propaganda put out by the Ivies and other top schools, people who go those elite institutions do not get better educations than people who spend two years at community college and then transfer to a public university. Indeed, I hear more complaints about bad professors from people who did the former; the dominant "publish or perish" way of life tends to prevent big name schools from having too high a proportion of career teachers, despite their earnest efforts to the contrary. You don't have to be a genius in your field to be a good teacher; and many aren't. (The one area that legitimately distinguishes top schools, academically, is minute specialties. That really only matters for non-professional grad school, and admissions for that is a beast of a different color.) What you DO get out of attending a big name school are 1) a load of networking connections helpful in career-building, and 2) the use of the big name school's big name In other words, things that do not actually forward your education or increase your raw capabilities as a human being, but which simply make other people think more of you. Therefore, I think it's a perfectly fair trade-off for the effects of racism, which similarly ruins circumstances but does not actually decrease raw human potential. Things are a little bit different at lower tier schools, but since there is less competition for spots the lower you look, that's less of an issue. Affirmative action in the workplace is also a different issue and is a little more complicated, I think. [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 12:02: Message edited by: Ornkithopter v. Thurkyl's Recall ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 12:29
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quote:I seem to be under the impression that American Jews are doing plenty well off, despite also falling under that second category. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 12:45
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See PoD person's post, Infernal, which provides what seems to me to be a very good explanation for that discrepancy. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 13:13
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Slarty, thanks for keeping the discussion calm. It's good to see somebody be passionate about an issue without resorting to exessive rhetoric or flaming. (I couldn't do this myself when an issue I strongly care about came up.) As I see it, your arguments come down to 2 things: 1. Present discrimination. 2. Social factors, namely: quote:This problem of low social mobility affects all poor people, rather than just blacks. So to fight it we need economic, rather than race-based affirmative action. I still think it would be better to fix urban schools and give these kids an opportunity to get equally good education. But since that is unlikely to happen any time soon, some kind of economic-based affirmative action seems necessary. (Determining and enforsing standards for such a program would be a nighmare, but that's another question. Besides, we have a lot of need-based scholarships to use as an example.) As for the present-day discrimination part of an argument for affirmative action, I still think that fighting it with quotas would do more harm than good. Besides, how do you decide how much protection to give to which group? It would be pretty hard to determine the ratio of people who throw all resumes with African American sounding names into garbage to the people who throw into garbage all resumes with Asian sounding names to the people who throw into garbage all resumes with Russian sounding names. So in summary, I probably agree that some form of economic-based affirmative action is necessary, but I would still vote against any prepositions that introduce race-based affirmative action. [ Thursday, May 04, 2006 13:15: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 13:59
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Well, what I see as a good immediate solution is a more powerful regional government. As it is, municipal governments with very small tax bases (rich people live in suburbs) are mainly in charge of running problem school. A better approach would be an expansive "metro-area" government which could tax the area as a whole and funnel some of the affluent areas' money into inner-city schools. Of course, the result would probably just be white flight unless it was done everywhere. Money also won't help that much without kids and parents emotionally invested in education, though. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 14:00
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I would definitely support an income-based affirmative action policy. The problem, though, is that money is not the only factor that correlates at greater than zero, and that is involved in awful marginalization and exploitation. Perhaps it is as useful a heuristic metric as race is, though. I'm not sure -- I need to give that some more thought. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 14:45
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From my personal experience, parents' income has a far greater correlation to doing well in school than race. Having been through high school where racial demographics were 60% black and 35% white, and with a wide range of incomes, etc., it was easy to see that income was a much more influential statistic than race. Students in higher-level and AP classes were almost all from middle- and upper-class homes, with only a few exceptions. Students in low-level and remedial classes were almost all from the poorer areas of town. But I think that this goes beyond just income as well. The students that are poor but still in high-level classes have parents that encourage and challenge them to perform well. Most have immigrant parents that realize any bettering of the family will come through their childrens' educational success. In low-level classes, parents and students just don't seem to care. The reason spoiled rich kids are going nowhere in life is their parents are not pressing them to excel and they don't want to excel. But comparing a rich kid in low-level classes and a poor kid in low-level classes, the rich kid will still have far more opportunities to redeem himself or herself in the future. Money provides that. There's virtually no margin of error for the poor student, and that's what needs to be addressed. (I need more paragraph breaks) -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 15:30
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Alorael's point a long while back has been ignored by some, and it shouldn't have been: affirmative action, in this day and age, does not mean choosing a less-qualified applicant because of race. It means choosing between two equally qualified applicants in part because of race (making race a tie-breaker). No one is arguing that quotas should return (although I think they had their place at one time, though no more). There are at least two much stronger arguments for affirmative action than past discrimination, one lesser and one greater. The lesser is that racial prejudice still exists, and although we may not see it every day, and although we may not talk about it all the time, it is still a fact of life for most people of color. The stronger reason, though, is that there is a lack of adequate role-models for young African-Americans. Black kids identify with black adults, and the black adults whom they see are athletes and rap stars at best and drug addicts and in jail at worst. It's hard for me to name a prominent African-American businessman (a black Bill Gates) or a great African-American scientist (the black Albert Einstein), which makes it very hard for smart young African-American kids to have someone to look up to. So, all other things being equal (a critical proviso), a black person might be better in an academic position or a position of leadership or prestige because that person can serve as a needed role model in a way that a person of European descent could not. Economic affirmative action also has its place, and I think we need to go beyond that: at universities in particular, having a diverse community (in every sense of the word "diverse") is important, because we learn as much from our interactions with those around us who are unlike us as we do from teachers and classes. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Thursday, May 4 2006 16:20
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Even when quotas are gone, "soft" affirmative action may well result in choosing a less-qualified candidate, even if the difference is slight. (Perfect example, Kel: remember my comment about a certain English dep't in that chat the other night?) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |