Question 2: Imbalance of Wealth
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| Author | Topic: Question 2: Imbalance of Wealth |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1092
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written Saturday, April 29 2006 22:57
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Is this conversation supposed to be aimed at the poor in a rich country, or a third world country? As was said before, some people have no money, but their quality of life isn't suffering, if anything, some of thos cultures would reject the idea of money. Whereas there are many of those who live on streets with very little food, water and shelter in countries that there are quite a few people living in quite large houses. It may be better off distrubuting whatever wealth can be managed on our own soil first before giving it away to someone else. -------------------- When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel. Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place. Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, April 29 2006 23:17
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quote:We are all citizens of the world. Making a distinction between the poor in your own country and the poor elsewhere is your first mistake. And as for you, Thralni, why should we bother talking to you when you so clearly don't understand the issues? The questions you asked have answers, and they're not the ones you gave. [ Saturday, April 29, 2006 23:19: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1092
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 01:03
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quote:It is no mistake. Would you not look after your own family before looking after someone elses? So why not look after the people in your own country first before contemplating those, some may not welcome it, who actually need help? EDIT-If the poor of our own country were given a job, and a decent chance like the rest of us (education and so forth), would that not be supporting our econmies further, so it makes it easier to support other countries? [ Sunday, April 30, 2006 01:07: Message edited by: Cairo Jim ] -------------------- When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel. Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place. Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 01:41
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quote:No, and you shouldn't either. Realising that your friends and family are no more or less deserving of special treatment than any other people is an absolute requirement for a morality that goes beyond gratifying your own selfish desires. All human evil stems from valuing one person's happiness more than another's, whether it be oneself, a family member or a member of one's own country. You love your family more than strangers. Hitler loved the Aryans more than the Jews. The difference between the two of you is only in degree, not in kind. [ Sunday, April 30, 2006 01:45: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 04:02
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I have the feeling that I'd better just shut up, but, as always, I don't like conflicts, and when there is one, I feel I must solve it. I'll do that now, and then I'll shut up and wait for Stareye to post a question about something I indeed know more. Okay, you are right, I know close to nothing about poverty. This might be a cause of the fact that we are trying to do something about poverty without almost any result. People simply don't know what's going on (read: the majority of the people). I'm one of them. You may call me ignorant, patronizing or whatever you want to call me, but I'll apologize when its necessary (when I think its necessary) and I'll admit it when I'm wrong. I'm wrong now. That's all. I'll shut up about the poverty for the rest of the time. However, it would be nice if this kind of things could be made clear to me in a more pleasant way, instead of taunting. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 04:10
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Thank you. It's refreshing to see that you're willing to admit your limitations. Now if you'd just listened to me the first time I replied to this thread, this never would have happened. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 04:57
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Cairo Jim, if you believe that most aid money goes directly to the people it is intended to help, I have a great deal on some swamp land in Florida for you... Let me direct your attention to the efforts of none other than Paul Wolfowitz, who as president of the World Bank has (surprisingly to me, as a flaming Dem) actually started taking nations to task for their corruption, and denying loans that in the past they would have received with little discretion. This is *revolutionary* for the bank. Hopefully it will continue. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 05:48
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quote:I agree with you as far as limited resources are concerned. Oil sold to China cannot be used in the US is a clear example of zero-sum. Regarding economic growth, however, I am not convinced. China develops at amazing pace as a consumer market to the benefit of western companies following some initial investment. [ Sunday, April 30, 2006 05:48: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 05:53
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quote:I have to say I was somewhat surprised to hear that you don't like conflicts. Let me make a suggestion, Thralni (I do this in a constructive spirit, not a taunting one): pick your battles. You are hardly unique here in being stubborn and always thinking you are right. That describes most people on spidweb, at least most vocal people. I think what you need to learn to do is this. Before you start arguing something on here, ask yourself: Why am I starting this argument? Sometimes there may be a good reason. Other times, it may be more valuable to listen and to learn from other people. There is no point in arguing unless (1) you know or understand things that other people involve don't, (2) these things are really important to you, and (3) the other people are going to listen to you. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 06:19
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quote:Those are results of each other. The more vocal tend to express their opinion more often than the less vocal. The more debates there are, the more those that strongly beleive that they are right will post. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 06:26
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Thinking you are always right correlates with using your head a lot. That definitely describes spidweb folk. I think there are more vocal, zealous people here than in most communities. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 09:10
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I found this little distraction that is quasi-related: 3rd World Farmer -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 09:36
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Fun game. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 10:09
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Setting up morality to value everyone equally is creating a standard as impossible as Christian sin. Millions of years of evolution have set us up to value ourselves and our relatives more than strangers, and that's okay. If you're going to help someone, helping someone you know works fine. I'm inclined to think that mutual help in a small community works better than general help. The difference is helping total strangers. There I can't see how strangers who live in the same artificially divided region of the world are more deserving than more distant strangers. —Alorael, who by Thuryl's logic now has to consider whether killing everyone living in abject poverty would be good for the average happiness index. If half were killed and fed to the other half, would that be better? Ah, Thuryl, how you inspire creative evil! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 12:01
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*i - that game was alright, except for when you start meeting with success and become relatively impervious to the negative events. Given that you could achieve such wealth, I thought it was unreasonable that it wouldn't provide means of further defending yourself - like guards or fenses, etc. I do realize that the point of the game is to lose, however. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 12:23
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Yeah, the game is being rapidly changed. It used to be that there was no way to get through more than twenty turns or so. Right now it's on the other extreme apparently. It's being refined. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 18:37
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quote:How could you possibly care equally for strangers as compared to your own family. Of course ones family is more important. We can't help the poor in other countries let alone our own before we actually care for family members and friends. They are deserving of special treatment. As for Hitler loving the Aryans, who cares. That was his choice just as it is ours to choose who is deserving of our support and attention. Simply because Hitler's love of Aryans lead to horrible things does not prove that special treatment is itself evil. That is the basis of equality the right to choose individually who or what is more important. People don't have some special obligation to go out and save the world from poverty. People actually have no obligation save to live and die. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 19:09
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quote:Biologically, probably not. Ethically, no. Be that the human is a social species and dependent upon society -- we developed it to our benefit -- one could extrapolate that every individual has a duty to society. This sense of responsibility outside oneself is not necessarily a moral thing, but a necessity for the survival of the species at large. Would everyone only have the only obligation to live and die, society would cease to exist. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 19:25
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You don't counter VCH's statement that we have no ethical obligation (at the level of the individual) to save the planet from poverty, you merely take one sentence out of context and argue against it. At the level of the individual, which is where most of us have the greatest ability to act, there is a minimum ethical agenda (to live, and to die.) This agenda is forcibly enlarged by the presence of a society to include some of the duties to which you allude. I find it interesting that we are challenged to answer a question at the societal level, and are criticised when the answer is given at the individual level. They are different things, with different levels of expectation, but they do interact and influence each other (to some extent.) -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 19:33
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quote:First, define "family" for me. We'll move on from there. Or, I suppose, look at it this way: If I'm allowed to favor a specific group's well-being at the complete disregard of another group's well-being to the point of complete ignorance of the maligned group's pain, then you are saying that ethics aren't universal-- that is, that it's OKAY for anyone and everyone to treat all people inequally. This, in turn, justifies Hitler (as Thuryl stated). And if you cannot combat Thuryl's claim, then we have some serious problems. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 19:36
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quote:Okay, so your rebuttal consisted basically of denying what Thuryl said, emphatically, without giving any kind of logic. Great. And given that the whole point of this topic is that maybe we ought to care about others, saying "we have no obligation to care about others" is moot. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 20:22
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quote:Since when does the point of the topic have anything to do with the character of the replies? Legion are the posts that answer that which the replier wishes was asked, rather than the actual question. I take my lead from my honorable CiC. ( :P ) -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 20:34
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quote:VCH -- I feel I have addressed the matter that there is a requirement for the individual to help the collective, it's a requirement of the society we developed. My point was that individualistic thinking is unsustainable. The duty of the individual is not merely to survive, but ensure the survival of society. I intentionally left the question open as to whether or not this would extend the entire planet. [ Sunday, April 30, 2006 20:39: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 20:41
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That's a nice straw man, TM, but I don't buy family as a slippery slope. It's possible to care more about your family and friends than strangers without ignoring the suffering of strangers completely. I think family is the wrong term. Let's use community, and use it to mean people you know and with whom you interact. It's not a formal definition, but everyone can understand it. Outside of one's community is the rest of the world. That's others in your country and others across the globe equally. I really think it's ethically acceptable to have unequal treatment. I feel no obligation to do good at random when I can do good to people towards whom I am inclined to do good. Outside that, though, all strangers also deserve good, and they deserve it equally. So yes, they're at another tier, and no, they're not ignored. —Alorael, who would even be comfortable giving charity only to other Americans. There are many organizations that serve only one area or one kind of need. What makes aid to the third world inherently better than aid to the destitute closer to home? Needy strangers are needy strangers. Deliberately avoiding giving aid to Africa is not the same as deliberately giving aid to India and having nothing left for Africa. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, April 30 2006 21:26
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quote:But isn't doing good even when there's nothing in it for you the very definition of morality? If you're only doing good because you feel obliged to, you're not really being moral. [ Sunday, April 30, 2006 21:31: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |