Is it still a crime if...
Pages
- 1
- 2
| Author | Topic: Is it still a crime if... |
|---|---|
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 14:49
Profile
...someone who did not know what death is willingly acted in a way that killed someone else? My dad and I just finished reading a book and were thinking that it seemed that most of the people in the world had no concept of death, with naturally lead us to this question. So....what do you guys(guys meaning people in general, not just males) think? -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 15:02
Profile
Homepage
It is always still a crime, ignorance doesnt excuse the action. However, the consequence varies. If someone had no concept of what "death" was, and they killed someone, they would probably be found to be criminally insane, and go into rehab. Thats like saying, if a 3yo doesnt yet understand how shopping works, and he goes into a store, gets a mars bar, and walks out, is it still stealing? Yes, of course it is. -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 15:09
Profile
It is a crime, but in a different sense. That is, if the person is mentally impaired in such a way that they are unable to comprehend their actions. That would also include very young children; say, a three-year-old inadvertently killed a sibling. Most people have some concept of what death is. Even my three-year-old nephew kind of understood when he saw that one of my rats had died. If the person that caused another person do die honestly was unable to comprehend what they did was wrong and why they shouldn't do that, they should not be on their own in society. [ Tuesday, September 06, 2005 15:10: Message edited by: Sunset ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 15:22
Profile
Homepage
Hence Rehab/Juvie, not Jail... -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 15:28
Profile
Crime is a word that means society has deemed something is offlimits. If that fictional world has not decided that causing death is a wrong or offlimits, then it is not a crime. My understanding of the USA is that intentional acts that result in anothers death are criminal except when acting in self-preservation. For some odd reason, that loophole doesn't exist when the dead person is a law enforcement officer. As an example, if a toddler knocks into the ironing board while mom/dad is bent down picking up the shirt and the iron falls and kills said parent, the toddler has not committed a crime. Also, if someone breaks into your car while you are in traffic, and you shoot them, you are not guilty of a crime. *this message reminds that deposition of sanity doesn't remove culpability* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 15:56
Profile
Okay, let's make this more complicated. Hypothetically, there's agroup of people, let's say about 200, who are a mix of genders and ages. They all live somewhere remote and without any influencesoutside their society. Now, a small group of these people, let's say about 10 make sure that there is no crime and that the community is protected. They also make all the choices for their community, such as career, spouse, dwelling, etc. When a person gets their career, they are trained in what they need to do. Some of these careers involve killing, such as the smaller of a pair of newborn identical twins, a newborn who wasn't meeting up to physical and mental standards, a person who kept breaking the major rules, and the very old. These people are trained how to kill people with injections, but do not know what death is. They just think they are putting the person to sleep so they can be sent somewhere out of the community in peace. Only the 10 people who make the choices are aware of death's existence. Now, the question is, who is responsible for a death? The 10 people who set it up, the person who kills the person not meeting up to standards, or a mix of the two? And if both the small group of people and the person who does the actual killing are responsible, how much blame does and/or should each party get? [ Tuesday, September 06, 2005 15:58: Message edited by: Nicothodes ] -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 16:20
Profile
Homepage
The party without knowledge, has very little blame. They are doing what they believe is right, with no concept of the outcome. See above for the 3yo or criminally insane. The party with knowledge, and intent, has conspired to kill. The sole consequence should be with them. For the "killers" in your scenario, punishment enough, would be their education and eventual realisation of their actions. Edit: get a smaller sig =/ [ Tuesday, September 06, 2005 16:22: Message edited by: kuc ] -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 16:49
Profile
It is hard to believe that any relatively lucid person couldn't tell the difference between sleeping and dead, but for the sake of argument I'll assume they can't. The ten people that are in charge and deceived the trained killers are guilty of premeditated murder. As for the trained killers: I agree with Kuc in that the knowledge of what they did would be punishment enough for anyone that was truly unaware of their actions. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 6102
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 16:55
Profile
Reading that starter statement reminded be of Dr. Kevorkian. (or however his name was spelled) Is it morally right to help patients die more quickly if they know that their suffering leads to a longer delay before death's door? Is it morally right to give assistant suicide, to help people commit suicide? The obvious answer is no, but think about it...there's actually something ironically right about it too. I personally do not see the irony of it though. Perhaps I'm too ignorant in this subject matter. [ Tuesday, September 06, 2005 17:42: Message edited by: Jeros ] -------------------- "Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies in the heart of mankind." -Edward D. Morrison Posts: 220 | Registered: Monday, July 11 2005 07:00 |
|
Master
Member # 4614
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 17:11
Profile
Homepage
For the first one, the man is commiting a crime but does not know it. I think that he should be sent to school. For the second one, the man is commiting a crime but does not know it. But he is aware what death is. The 10 people who know the people are dying are responsible. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 17:16
Profile
Homepage
I'd already said that Jeros. It will always be wrong. The consequences, or proportion of blame, is all that changes. Going back to the first point: criminally insane people go into secure rehab, not jails. And the last point: for those who are blissfully unaware of death, their education would be sufficient punishment. As for Euthanasia, completely different topic, won't go there for now/here. -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 17:37
Profile
Okay, let's add another element to this scenario. There is one person outside of the group of ten people who knows what death is and what is going on. What should he/she do? Should he/she teach the people who do not know about such things? Should he confront the group of 10? Should he/she do something completely different? And...what he/she decides to do nothing at all? Does this person deserve a punishment more than watching people dying, sometimes for no reason? If they do, what is acceptable punishment? -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 17:53
Profile
quote:If said person does nothing he is just as guilty as the ten, as he is an accessory to murder. Confronting the ten would be foolish, as it would likely result in death. I would say he should tell the trained killers so as to prevent future deaths. You said they are in a remote area, so the authorities may be out of reach. The rest of the community should be told what is happening, so they can decide what should be done. [ Tuesday, September 06, 2005 17:56: Message edited by: Sunset ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 1546
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 18:35
Profile
Homepage
Mutiny! but, on an Island. :) -------------------- A Sucaran Child is standing here. You say, "hello" The small child looks at Preserver Aldous wide-eyed and awed. Posts: 269 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 18:37
Profile
Homepage
Nico, get rid of the sig, please. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 19:45
Profile
quote:Second. -------------------- "Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending" Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5450
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 21:09
Profile
Homepage
quote:Well, he/she should kill the 10, of course. :P They should confront the 10, that is, if they understand the concept of death. If not, they should at least stop the killers. -------------------- I'll put a Spring in your step. Polaris Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Tuesday, September 6 2005 23:22
Profile
quote:If you treat this group as a society, rather than some isolated bunch of yokels, they seemed to have solved the problem themselves. They have authorities, judges, executioners, and presumably teachers, coopers, masons, etc. Our society is the one that believes murder is a crime, not their society. Treat other societies with respect, not condemnation. Ancient Rome was rife with behaviors that today we consider to be immoral or amoral, yet it was the accepted norm of the time and place. It tends to be the citizens in a society that call "time out" when morals begin to move, and if I was one of the 190 individuals that submit to the 10 authority figures, I might have some questions. But given my answers in the $1 thread, I would likely leave well enough alone. Death is part of life, and we all get to experience it some day. *this message supports a long, happy, and friendly life* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 03:39
Profile
Indeed, y'all are applying our standards on another culture. Given that everyone there is treated equitably under their "law," which is what it is, there is no "crime" to it. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 04:45
Profile
Besides, what if in THEIR culture killing the excess would simply be necessary. Have thought that what if those 10 people have a REASON to do what they're doing? Have you thought that perhaps the things go well with their way? In that case, I'd consider breaking the society far worse crime than killing people. BTW, I'm sure Aran will come here in some point, quoting something I wrote a minute earlier... -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 08:51
Profile
quote:I have no moral objections to other cultures' standards. If killing is their way of handling all crimes that doesn't bother me, but why are the ten in charge lying to the ones doing the killing and the community? The people did organize their society and government, but they all seem to think that said criminals are being sedated and sent away. The scenario implied a corrupt government rather than the ideals the society lives by; that was my reasoning. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 09:12
Profile
Society has ceded sovereignty/authority to those individuals, though. It's legit, given that the standards apply to everyone. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 09:23
Profile
By that logic you are saying that a supreme ruler(s) should never be questioned, even if they abandon the beliefs that made the people enthrone them in the first place. Shouldn't they at least be made aware of what is happening? -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
By Committee
Member # 4233
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 09:37
Profile
Well, if the society is democratic, then the answer is, "it depends." The secrecy v. transparency argument goes back and forth there. An autocratic regime, however, is under no such constraint. The people are welcome to attempt an overthrow of their government at any time. Presumably, learning the "horrid" secret of what death is and that the government euthanizes old people and criminals may give rise to this. On the other hand, since they a.) trust their rulers, b.) have known this as their custom their entire lives, and c.) the government has otherwise not betrayed their trust, do you think they would rebel? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Wednesday, September 7 2005 10:02
Profile
Another sign of the Apocolypse. Drew and myself have found agreement. Still waiting for the kid to show, but it looks like Famine, War, Pestilence, and now Death are present and accounted for. *this message sponsored by the sword, scales, and crown* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
Pages
- 1
- 2