Is it still a crime if...

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AuthorTopic: Is it still a crime if...
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #25
A) Perhaps, and if such is the case then all is well with their customs and there would have been no harm in telling them in the first place (or now).

B) They don't know killing as their custom. They think the people are being sedated and sent away.

C) Rebellion is always possibility when a community feels betrayed by their leader. What would you say if you were told that your grandfather was being sedated for safe travel only do discover he has been murdered?

[ Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:20: Message edited by: Sunset ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #26
If I have no comprehension of what death is, then how could I comprehend murder? For that matter, is "going away to sleep forever" really substantively different than our definition of death? Emphasis on the "forever" part.

How about another question...

Islamochristohindian leaders perpetuate that the faithful will go to heaven and live forever with Shiyallahwehva after they die, provided that the faithful do what they say. However, the reality is that they made up the whole thing to keep the people docile and doing what they think is right. Is what they're doing wrong?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #27
Surely these people have some concept of death, or have the never eaten meat, kept a pet or farm animal, or picked a flower? The difference between eternal sleep and death is the illusion that the person is still alive.

I can't really comment on the morality of cults, as one could argue that every organized religion is in a sense a cult. In your example they made the whole thing up, but at the same time men wrote the bible rather than God's hand.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #28
My answer to this hypothetical situation is that the one person should tell the others that the victims are being killed, rather than temporarily sedated.

If after hearing the explanation, the society is still fine with the practice, it's their choice. However, the setup described sounds very Orvellian. If it's really that tribe's custom to kill the weak and the old, why do the rulers need to lie?

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #29
quote:
Originally written by Sunset:

The difference between eternal sleep and death is the illusion that the person is still alive.
How is eternal sleep different from/preferable to death? Getting to dream? How would a belief in an afterlife affect this distinction?

quote:
I can't really comment on the morality of cults, as one could argue that every organized religion is in a sense a cult. In your example they made the whole thing up, but at the same time men wrote the bible rather than God's hand.
Lots of people don't believe that men wrote the Bible though, and I would argue that this belief is entirely based on what they've been told by others, no matter the "feeling" they claim to receive from their faith.

But I digress. If people don't have an alternative to "eternal sleep" to consider, then that becomes their "death" for purposes of their law, as it permanently removes individuals from society for the reasons their rulers have spelled out. If they accept those rules for the "eternal sleep," then I don't see why there's any reason they would change once they know what death is.

[ Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:59: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #30
I prefer death to eternal sleep, but I have my beliefs in the thereafter. These people must know what sleeping is, as they dream every night. Perhaps they feel their loved ones remain in a dream realm for all eternity.

In sleep the body is warm and soft, and there is still a pulse and breath; thus the illusion of life. Now, assuming they have no spirituality/religion/faith/thereafter outside of sleep it may very well be upsetting to learn one's loved one no longer exists. Perhaps they created the eternal sleep to protect their loved ones from death. Surely people have died suddenly or accidentally here or there, so they must have seen a dead human before.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 2210
Profile #31
Then I with an accomplice could poison all of the leaders and claim they are all sleeping without committing a crime. I would then effectively take over the community by threatening to put all of the people to sleep just like dogs.

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Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh.

Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight.
Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
Profile #32
Okay, here's more! :P

First of all, the person outside of the group of 10 who knew what death was no longer exists. Now.....

You are a member of the group of 10. All of these groups of 10 that have ever existed have, over the generations, created a 'safe' place, far from any other society. They have gotten rid of all except the most minor pain, such as scrapes and bruises. There is no war, but there is no real happiness either, as some elements of life have been taken away because they hinder work, such as hills and weather. Now, you're realizing what your group has taken away from all of these generations of people and you're feeling guilty about the deaths you have caused, such as the newborn whose only crime was being an identical twin. You want to stop everything, and, if possible, convince the other 9 that this is wrong. How do you go about doing this?

EDIT: Oops! Forgot! They control feelings too. When children get into adolescence they start taking a pill that numbs all feelings. So they might feel mildly happy, but to us that would be like the reaction to, let's see.....getting 1 more point than we expected in a test we took.

[ Wednesday, September 07, 2005 13:24: Message edited by: Nicothodes ]

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If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could".
Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #33
Nobody is really happy because there are no hills or weather? Your hypothetical is growing increasingly silly. :P

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My BoE Page
Bandwagons are fun!
Roots
Hunted!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 5814
Profile #34
Well, if you would all just read The Giver... :rolleyes:

And as for the emotion-inhibiting pills, they're actually for suppressing romantic and sexual desire. Wikipedia concurs, by the way:
quote:
From Wikipedia:The Community maintains this process using pills which suppress romantic and sexual feelings.
And the Elders should give the residents a choice when they're old enough to make descisions (and not impair those descisions with propaganda). The choice? Live in utopia, eliminate all pain and suffering, forget everything. The catch is you can't bring all the pain and suffering that makes you real in with you.

The other option is to live out in a cold and heartless world, where you have to make choices and take risks. You can succeed, but you can fail miserably and horribly as well.

[ Wednesday, September 07, 2005 15:00: Message edited by: Not I ]

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I HAVE LOCATED MY CAPS LOCK KEY AND FEEL YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT!
Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #35
While we're referencing Wikipedia anyway, here are the relevant articles:

Actus reus & Mens rea.

Based on this (in the jurisdictions where it applies), it would be impossible to punish someone for a crime they are not aware they are committing, but it would be perfectly justifiable to inter them in an institution due to mental lability. And that does not take into account the "recklessness" and "negligence" conditions.

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #36
You know, I liked this whole topic best the first time I read about it in Brave New World.

EDIT: Holy Moly! I didn't have any idea that you were Sunset, Dolphin, until just now. :)

[ Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:42: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #37
Going back a little bit, obviously the difference between death and eternal sleep in that death causes the body to decompose. "Oh, look at this skeleton! He's sleeping!"

Well, actually, that does sound plausible as a belief of undereducated people...

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-ben4808

For those who love to spam:
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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

EDIT: Holy Moly! I didn't have any idea that you were Sunset, Dolphin, until just now. :)
I'm having a mid-thousand identity crisis :P

What made you recognize it's me, member number?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #39
I saw an earlier post that had been made by you that now said "Sunset". ;)
But since I now have a searchable database for member numbers, names and post counts, I probably would have found out if I had wondered who you were. :D

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #40
I just hadn't seen you around (vis a vis your other monikers) and though you'd left.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Arancaytar:

...
But since I now have a searchable database for member numbers, names and post counts, I probably would have found out if I had wondered who you were. :D

Is that database publically accessible and does it include permanent names, in addition to ever-changing screen names?

Back on topic of dystopias, the one I found most disturbing after my good Soviet elementary school education was "We". It described the perfect communist society that we were supposedly striving for in USSR, but that society didn't look like a very nice place to live. By the way, "We" was the founder of the genre of dystopia and was a big influence on Orvell.

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #42
I'll bet putting such a database online via a remote host would cost big bucks. Otherwise you guys could try out benBB, a forum software I'm creating. :P

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-ben4808

For those who love to spam:
CSM Forums
RIFQ
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

I just hadn't seen you around (vis a vis your other monikers) and though you'd left.
That doesn't surprise me since I've only been posting about once or twice a day on average :(

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #44
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

quote:
Originally written by Arancaytar:

...
But since I now have a searchable database for member numbers, names and post counts, I probably would have found out if I had wondered who you were. :D

Is that database publically accessible and does it include permanent names, in addition to ever-changing screen names?

Back on topic of dystopias, the one I found most disturbing after my good Soviet elementary school education was "We". It described the perfect communist society that we were supposedly striving for in USSR, but that society didn't look like a very nice place to live. By the way, "We" was the founder of the genre of dystopia and was a big influence on Orvell.

It's online, but not publically available. In other words, I can access it from a MyAdmin panel, but not from a public web page. I'm working on that last one.

It doesn't automatically include permanent names, although it's theoretically possible to assign a member a permanent name manually that doesn't change.

[ Saturday, September 10, 2005 00:13: Message edited by: Arancaytar ]

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00

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