Global Warming or Global Cooling
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| Author | Topic: Global Warming or Global Cooling |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, June 3 2005 09:35
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Heres my two cents: Temperature data showing global heat warming has been heavily skewed due to proximity to urban centres. That is, locations that once were quite rural are now being affected by urban growth, with cities acting as heat sinks. Thus, temperature data from these locations WILL show increased warming, but the warming is lcal in nature only. Check out this ling for temperature data from locations that remain rural, some data goes back more than 50 years, and none of the data shows ANY conclusive evidence for global warming. http://www.john-daly.com/stations/stations.htm#Canadian%20Arctic Next, as far as the scientific community being at one with the idea of global warming, here is an article that discounts the major theory, signed by over 17,000 scientists (look at the number of Phd's as well as the expert qualifications for many of these scientists. http://www.geocities.com/kekogut/population/Globlw4.pdf I'd also like to comment on fears that oil will run out in the next 20 to 50 years. If you trace the use of energy throughout history you will note a progression, from the burning of wood, to using wood to create charcoal, to coal, to oil. Nearing the end of each stage there have usually been warnings about the rapid depletion of resources and the unsustainability of energy use. None of this has come to pass. Oil too will be a transitional energy form. The question is really do we have enough oil to reach the next transition. Given that traditional oil reserves are being supplemented with bio-fuels, extraction from tarsands and gasification of coal, technology advances allowing access to deeper reserves and greater utilization of existing reserves, I question the fear-mongering tactics being used to harpoon oil and oil-based economies. Environmental awareness IS important, but to achieve environmental awareness we are far better off linking real, tangible concerns to acheivable goals as fear-mongering eventually dulls the senses - witness the boy who cried wolf and chicken little. Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, June 3 2005 10:09
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Speaking for the environmental side of things, both personal and corporate, oil extraction is fairly clean when compared to coal. Technology shifts have allowed single platforms to access multiple oil reserves by drilling sideways and diagonally. Recent innovations in transport (double hulled tankers) and much stricter control on personnel (Valdez) have removed much of the danger on the extraction side of things. Coal, is a highly profitably extractive substance due to the large volume of coal to tailings. It also tends to exist near the surface and reclamation is easily accomplished since there are no toxic byproducts from mining. On the other hand, trace and precious metal mining, such as found in Montana, is extremely dangerous to the environment. First let me say it is also the least likely to make you rich, compared to coal or oil. Tailing to ore ratios are on the order of 400:1 for copper mining and 5,000,000:1 for gold mines. So there are huge amounts of toxic waste materials. As rain and melted snow perc through that waste, out leaches all those heavy metals that weren't wanted by the mining company. Of course the ore is also processed on site, typically with cyanide, which stays in the waste ore in a pit. Forever. So not to point fingers, as no one here (I assume) is responsible for the Anaconda Mine or was a director of Pegasus Gold, but environmental damage can be very real and insidious. It causes long-term (read 20,000 years) damages to the surrounding area and inhabitants. I know I wouldn't want to live downstream from an abandoned heap-leach mine. It'd make me go dumb. :eek: :eek: :confused: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Friday, June 3 2005 12:30
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I have no idea what, if anything, will wipe us out. But I hope it happens before we meet any (other?) intelligent life the universe might hold. Because otherwise I think shame is the likeliest candidate. I'm loathe to worry too much about climate change, because I'd far rather tear the entire mantle off the planet than give the anti-humanist hyper-hippie brigade a real voice. This is our planet, not by any natural right but because in evolutionary terms, we won. To my mind that means we can do whatever we like with it provided it's not vastly counter-productive. However things like drilling in Alaska, according to the figures I've seen, simply aren't worth it. Industrialisation in the Third World is going to have to be done the old and dirty way. They have little enough cash now, they aren't going to be able or willing to afford state of the art machinery. Which means that it would make sense for the developed world to use a more sophisticated method, possibly a switch into nuclear, possibly to something else such as a hydrogen economy. I don't what the most plausible alternative is, please don't take anything I'm saying as anything more than my not terribly informed two shillings. Either way, I can't help thinking that the change ought to accelerate soon. By the time I retire (if such a concept still exists by the second half of this century) I am fairly certainly the concept of an oil well will be all but bankrupt. The changeover can't come right at the last minute, because dozens of resource wars would make such a changeover prohibitive. As it is, we have the occasional hybrid car, we have a bit of LPG and biodiesel, but it shows no sign of exploding in popularity and we have renewable energy only in a few areas where the population and geography is sympathetic towards it. Theoretically, the invisible hand of the market ought to do everything. But its neither the fastest nor the most reliable thing in the world. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5822
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written Friday, June 3 2005 12:32
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global warming is an example of the state of fear and just used to scare people so they will obey the government -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Friday, June 3 2005 12:45
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quote:Um, the government (or at least the executive branch) is actually playing down the effects of global warming. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5822
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written Friday, June 3 2005 12:53
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that may be true but so is mine the government (or some one higher) has been keeping most people in a state of fear. p.s. and how do you know about that? -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Friday, June 3 2005 13:01
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In the US? I read the news. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Friday, June 3 2005 13:38
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quote:Your government maybe. Other governments, e.g. those who ratified the Kyoto Protocol, try rather to develop precautions to avoid further global warming. :D And I agree totally to your presumption about the global dumbing. -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Friday, June 3 2005 23:47
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quote:Data about global warming has to go back more than hundred years to be trustworthy. And if global warming is a bluff, then you propably have a better explanition for this: In scandinavia, lakes are frozen two weeks less than 80 years ago. They freeze a week later than they used to, and melt a week earlier. Also, why is the amount of fresh melting water flowing to Atlantic ocean rising, as we should be, judging from time elapsed from last ice age and the current orbit of earth, closer to new ice age? Also, methane clathrates have been noticed to be melting in the northern seas. This kinds of events took place five hundred million years ago, before the time of dinosaurs. Sudden release of methane to athmosphere caused a huge warming cycle, which caused the average temperatures to rise by 16 degrees. This wiped out 90% of all life on earth. Frankly, I can't give you any links, as I don't gather my information from internet. Part of this information was taken from a TV documentary I saw a year back, some info was taken from 'CD-facta 97' by WSOY, and most was gathered from those dozens of science magazines I've read. -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Saturday, June 4 2005 01:26
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I'm not sure if somebody has properly refuted the individual who opined that the world of the dinosaurs was a tropical paradise. The above post rather shows the flaw in that theory. I think the 16C rise you refer to was the Permian extinction, the most devastating extinction event this planet has ever seen. Even a 5C rise would vastly change the planet and whilst you might like the hotter weather, the local foliage is adapted to the present conditions and it would not prosper. Hence mass starvation. And from my point of view the planet is quite hot enough already, thanks. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Saturday, June 4 2005 12:22
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quote:Yeah, well, us Montanans are very proud of our mining history. Take for example the Berkeley Pit in Butte, a huge open-pit copper mine like a mile across. Absolutely huge. Now? Filled 2/3 of the way with water so acidic (pH 2.5) that they do all they can to keep from killing birds with the water. :P Bad for the environment, bad for looks, good for hisorical sights. I don't live in Butte though, and I'm pretty happy with that. Way too hilly. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Saturday, June 4 2005 20:26
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After I clicked the "Reply" button, I decided to not make a Butte hole joke. I think I heard somewhere that NZ has black sand rich in titanium oxide (I think it's Ti2O3) just lying around in massive piles which aren't processed for titanium because the oxide is too expensive remove, or something. ... that's not very impressive, but then again I don't know anything about Chemistry (I'm failing at school) or mining. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, June 4 2005 20:45
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I'm not a geologist, but it wouldn't surprise me. Titanium's a very common metal in the earth's crust; extracting it is the tricky part. Remember, a couple of centuries ago aluminium was worth more than gold. Napoleon III, it is said, allowed only his most esteemed guests to use his aluminium cutlery. [ Saturday, June 04, 2005 20:54: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Sunday, June 5 2005 10:52
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Hmm, that's interesting, that aluminum value. If you could go back to that time frame, I wouldn't forget my pop cans. :P -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Sunday, June 5 2005 11:15
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quote:Spare us your fallacious humility, homo universalis. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Monday, June 6 2005 04:11
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quote:Clearly you've never been to Minnesota in February. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Monday, June 6 2005 05:29
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quote:The implication I get from this is that the internet is not a reliable form of information dissemination. As in any research of any merit, one must look at the references attached and determine the quality of the source. The FORM the media is delivered is irrelevant. At least one of the links cited comes in a document form that was REPRODUCED in electronic form - the electronic form is not the primary source merely the most accessible source. At least by giving the links readers can do their own assesment as to the quality of the source - many dozens of "science" magazines may included pop journals, documents that aren't rigorously assessed by peers or even unrefereed journals. Sorry, I cannot accept unamed sources as reliable. Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Monday, June 6 2005 06:21
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I don't see any possibility how the global temperature could decrease significantly soon, besides a potential super eruption of Yellowstone Volcano. The clouds of hydrogenium sulfide which would then spread amongst the atmosphere of the Earth would prevent light from reaching the surface. [ Monday, June 06, 2005 06:26: Message edited by: Inferior ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Monday, June 6 2005 07:30
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quote:And you've never been to the northeast on a humid summer day... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Monday, June 6 2005 07:47
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quote:Au contraire, mon frere. More to the point, I grew up in the Ohio River valley, where humidity has become an entity. But the extremity of the heat in New England or the South doesn't hold a candle to the intensity of the Minnesota winter, I guarantee. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Monday, June 6 2005 07:58
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But you still have the benefit of putting several layers of clothing on. There are only so many I can take off, and even that will do little to save me from the heat... Although should the power go out in either of our positions it will be a rather nasty end for both of us... [ Monday, June 06, 2005 08:02: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ] -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Monday, June 6 2005 12:46
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The cold doesn't bother me. I'll grant that the east coast of England has much milder winters than Minnesota (it's a maritime climate, we get maybe 2 days of noticeable snow a year and the cold doesn't hit until the wind starts coming straight out from Siberia around February) but I tend to fall asleep on top of the covers with the window open even in winter. I wake up around 6AM shivering uncontrollably, of course, but I'd much rather have cold weather than hot. As Sullust says, it's much easier to block out. I'm mildly allergic to my own sweat, so humidity in particular is the devil. -------------------- Voice of Reasonable Morality Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5822
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written Monday, June 6 2005 12:57
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in vermont it is realy cold in the winter and realy humid in the summer -------------------- who knows what darkness lurks in the hearts of men? the shadow knows ninjas are so better than pirates homerun Posts: 85 | Registered: Tuesday, May 17 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5908
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written Monday, June 6 2005 15:46
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global warming with cause the fusion of polar ice. if a glaciar released from the artic or greenland hits the Golf stream, the flow of warm water from the tropics to western europe will stop, and europe will enter the next ice age. however, by the time that happens, global economy should already be in an irreversible crash, as a result of constant weather disasters which simply render industry useless (no money, no salvation) and we don't need to wait long 50 years will be long enough, even more so if you consider future middle east conflicts over water [ Monday, June 06, 2005 15:46: Message edited by: imho2 ] -------------------- i am imho Posts: 3 | Registered: Monday, June 6 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Thursday, June 16 2005 03:11
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quote:I know, and I fully understand. However, I can't pinpoint a single magazine, as I've gathered my information of multiple articles over the years. I can tell you what magazines I've been reading, though. These are Tiede, Maaseudun tulevaisuus (not an actual science magazine [tells about farming] but still consists mostly of facts and is a reliable source) and Tekniikan maailma. What comes to the reliability of internet, well, most you find there is crap. I still think, however, that there are many reliable sites, and if I didn't have a reason to believe otherwise, I might consider the links you gave very reliable. When I said that I don't gather my information from internet, well, I just don't gather my information from internet. I find books and magazines more handy. I actually found one intresting link recently, but I lost it. Damn. Try searchin google for 'water world' and 'polar ice caps', and it should be somewhere there. I'll post the link if I find it, and I'll also tell you the name of that TV documentary if I remember it in some point. Also check what encyclopedias have to say about ice ages. There is a lot of intresting reading there. -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |