How do we perceive fringe groups?

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Author	Topic: How do we perceive fringe groups?
Custer Bob's Big Date Member # 3151	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 04:55 Profile Homepage #25 Both Israel and Palestine have committed atrocities. Since the Israelis are, by and large, European colonists who established a nation on land which the Palestinians' families had occupied for centuries, I have a little trouble feeling more sympathetic for Israel than I do, say, the pre-Apartheid government of South Africa. If there is any coherent argument for the US-style pro-Israel intransigence which doesn't involve waving the Holocaust card for twenty minutes, I'd like to hear it. [ Tuesday, October 19, 2004 04:57: Message edited by: Fear Uncertainty and Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 05:46 Profile #26 How about the desire of the Jewish population of the US that Israel continue to exist? It certainly seems to be important to them, and they've worked very hard to insure that they're in the position to achieve their policy goals. The Jewish community is an astonishingly well organized collective action force, and largely rich and affluent, with many members involved in key places in US society and industry. By contrast, there really isn't a strong or effective interest in rolling policy the other way, but there's no reason why a group in the US couldn't take a similar initiative, in theory. [ Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:02: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 08:29 Profile #27 The idea of a Jewish state has been around for quite a while. It happened primarily because the Russians drove the Russian Jews out of Russia during the late pogroms in the 19th century. There had been Zionists in Israel since the 1880s. There were three successive waves out of Russia settled in the land then called Palestine and now called Israel. The holocaust was the fourth wave of settlers heading to Israel. The British new before leaving they could not prevent a war for control of the land. The myth that Israel came about out of nothing is an interesting one. There was a lot of preparation beforehand. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
too kraut, don't read Shock Trooper Member # 3980	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 09:45 Profile Homepage #28 There is nothing as practical as a good theory, but, with respect, any political "theory" that ignores the history and the resulting subjective feelings and anxieties of peoples is not worth the time. I do not mean to lecture, but... if you want to take the effect of the Holocaust into account and if I may suggest, start by considering what effect 9/11 has had on the US population. The Holocaust was to 9/11 like 9/11 was to one murder. Imho, it was also of a different nature. Still, 9/11 it is at least close in time and present in media reports, although nobody survived to tell the tale. For me as a German the most scary aspect of the Holocaust is that it went from official bullying to deportation in full view of the neighbors to industrial scale killing of people who had been well integrated in the community. Nothing like "surgical strikes" or carpet bombing or nuclear bombing of people whom the pilot has never seen. The only remark I have to fend off the idea that it resulted from some inherently German trait is that the killing infrastructure did not start like a huge killing machine specifically for Jews from the outset. Do I need to mention that the idea that it was all Hitler's fault does not hold water? He did not invent any of that racist ideology (look here Lanz_von_Liebenfels for a start)- maybe one of the things that singled him out from the beginning was that he was without a doubt. Now try to change the perspective from the operators to the victims. I cannot come to grips with that as everybody I have talked to about the IIIrd Reich felt like a victim - it might seem like there were no operators. It helped a bit to read Klaus Theweleit's Male Fantasies. At least it helps to identify the subjective traits of the operators. The subjective ones are the ones that you need for that scary introspective search... I have come to accept that trying to undertsand the Jewish perspective is just beyond me. I can only say that trying to understand Israel without understanding Antisemitism - or Antijudaism to be more precise - is just futile. In a way the Palestineans have got to bear the consequences of the prosecution/victimisation of the Jews that occurred all over Europe more or less through the ages before, so there is little room for European self-righteousness (Forgive me the passive voice.) What is difficult to bear, however, is that the victim-feeling has infected the Arab world by Palestinean and now by Iraqi proxies via the the US - in perpetuating repercussions that prevents any self-inspection. The whole concept of guilt does not help here as victims have a particularly hard time to introspect for fear of having to accept guilt - no matter whether born again Christians or else. Acceptance of guilt endangers the identity of the victim as such that is why everybody is so obsessed with "balanced" reporting. Somehow we have to find some solidarity in fighting this virus of being each others Antisemits - mentally. Some might want to believe that this was what Christianity started out as - it did not stay like that. [ Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:04: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Custer Bob's Big Date Member # 3151	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 18:09 Profile Homepage #29 There is an Alexandrine solution to Israel: US mandate. Right through the Gordian knot with one stroke, that. Since we basically have Israel's balls in our hands, they're not exactly in a position to protest if we hand a Palestinian government a green-red-white flag and the West Bank; since the Palestines are, otherwise, getting jack, they're not in a position to protest either. Our willingness to support Israel no matter what is very dangerous to both Palestinians and Israelis; the Israelis are gradually becoming what they fled Europe to avoid, and I think it's terrible. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
too kraut, don't read Shock Trooper Member # 3980	written Tuesday, October 19 2004 23:49 Profile Homepage #30 Alec, I agree with you "in theory". Just look at BBCs recent Analysis: Israel's Gaza strategy However, 1. this leaves out the political reality in the US. Who am I to try to analyse this? 2. this leaves out the lack of will to give up the land grab a la Salami: Ugly war over West Bank olive crop. Does anybody have a clue about different media cultures in the US and in the UK? [ Wednesday, October 20, 2004 00:14: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Thursday, October 21 2004 01:57 Profile Homepage #31 The fact is, until Arafat and Sharon are out of power (likely meaning dead for Arafat), there is very little chance of a peace agreement. Israel has made concessions to Palestinians and given them the land that they've claimed to want, but Arafat has walked away from the table so many times that it's just ridiculous. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
too kraut, don't read Shock Trooper Member # 3980	written Thursday, October 21 2004 03:58 Profile Homepage #32 Drakey, are you sure that speculating about killing of President Arafat is appropriate for a highly respected "super"-member of this board? From what you write I believe that peace will not be possible unless BOTH sides abstain from such blatant distortions of facts. Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Custer Bob's Big Date Member # 3151	written Thursday, October 21 2004 04:01 Profile Homepage #33 Arafat does not represent the Palestinian people and perhaps it's time to stop pretending he does. He is an old terrorist who started the PLO by undemocratic, uncivilized means, and his mode of thinking has no more place in the peace process than Sharon's. Again, unilateral action would probably help here; if Arafat tries to resist a settlement which actually, authoritatively gives Palestine its own land and territory, where is he with the people he claims to represent? -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, October 21 2004 04:16 Profile Homepage #34 I'm not sure if Drakey was suggesting killing him. Arafat's pretty old. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Thursday, October 21 2004 04:35 Profile #35 I had the impression that Arafat really hasn't been running the show at this point so much as Hamas has. The more I look at what Hamas has been doing, the more I see parallels with N. Ireland's Sinn Fein, albeit with suicide bombers. If that conflict serves as any sort of true comparison though, then Israel's in for a long ride yet. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
too kraut, don't read Shock Trooper Member # 3980	written Thursday, October 21 2004 09:14 Profile Homepage #36 Andrew, the Northern Island parallel is an interesting point and it may help us out of spiralling into the the cul de sac of a flame war. There was that Good Friday agreement where the IRA agreed to lay down arms in exchange for some political powersharing may be reminiscient of a "land for peace" deal. What prevented the Ulster Unionists from building a wall through the catholic areas and from ethnic clensing for "security reasons"? How important was that the money from the US into IRA coffers was cut off? Where did the Unionists get their support from? I mean if there is no more money flowing in from the outside, all the madness should die down in due course, should it not? Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Thursday, October 21 2004 09:21 Profile #37 I doubt that the rest of the Arab world will stop funding the Palestinians under the table anytime soon. They all hate Israel as much as the Palestinians. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
too kraut, don't read Shock Trooper Member # 3980	written Thursday, October 21 2004 09:50 Profile Homepage #38 None of us knows how much money flows to both sides in Israel and Palastine. Here is something On the Northern Island Status at present. The difficulty is to develop courage to give up the idea of eradicating the enemy will bring more security. I doubt that it would help if Sharon and Arafat changed their places, because Sharon in Arafat's position would not accepts any of the deals that Israel offers and - maybe - vice versa. Reminds of Groucho Marx refusing to join a club that would admitt anybody like him. [ Thursday, October 21, 2004 10:00: Message edited by: No 2 Methylphenidate ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00

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