Stem Cell Research
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Apprentice
Member # 4603
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written Monday, October 11 2004 20:11
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If I may, I would like to discuss the topic of stemcell research that was brought up the other night at the Presidential Debates. I remember George W. Bush responding to a question concern the use of embryonic stem cells verses adult stem cells. He stated that adult stem cells were "more effective" according to new research. What I assume that Bush means is: "More effective in treating diseases." I also distinctly remember Kerry having no direct rebuttle to Bush's comments about adult stem cell research [the effectiveness of adult stem cells against diseases]. Correct me if I am wrong or right concerning my above recollections. What my main question to you all is: "What research is Bush talking about?" Does anyone know where to find it? Any ideas as to why Kerry didn't respond directly to Bush's comment? Sound off here... -------------------- Being a pacifist between wars is like being a vegetarian between meals. --Colman McCarthy Posts: 2 | Registered: Wednesday, June 23 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, October 11 2004 20:41
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You confuse me utterly. Nobody begins their existence on this board debating politics, but you have one post. Do you have another account here? To stay on-topic: It seemed rather weird to me too to have Bush quote science, especially as he seems otherwise to be opposed to scientific research. That is why I would not wonder if his argument turned out to be either made up, or questionable results unscientific experiments, manipulated in such a way as to fit him. I, too, would be very interested in seeing evidence. Has www.factcheck.org picked this up? -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Monday, October 11 2004 21:31
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I believe that since embryonic stem cell research is banned in the US, the scientists are having to resort to using stem cells from the nose. I hear it has something to do with curing spinal cord injuries. Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, October 11 2004 21:48
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So far, embryonic stem cells have worked better in some applications and adult stem cells in others. The advantage of embryonic stem cells is that they tend to be more versatile and easier to differentiate into a variety of different cell types; the advantage of adult stem cells is that they could often be taken from the patient who's being treated, eliminating the possibility of rejection by the immune system. I believe embryonic stem cell research is legal in the USA, but only on pre-existing cell lines; no new embryonic stem cell lines can be established. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Monday, October 11 2004 22:15
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quote:Kryptonian is a member at Chance, and most probably found out about Spiderweb through RC. Chance seems to have been down for the last few days, so it only makes sense that, deprived of the political topics on Chance that are his lifeblood, he would start one here. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 00:20
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Right now adult stem cells may seem to be more effective, but that's only because the limited research on only a few lines of embryonic stem cells hasn't produced much. Still, embryonic stem cells have shown a greater potential for treating diseases thought to be uncurable, as we're beginning to see the limits of adult stem cell research. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 02:19
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Not sure about that, Drakey. We're still at the stage of basic research at this point, so I agree that we need embryonic stem cells to work with. But immune reaction against implanted embryonic stem cells isn't a trivial problem; I suspect that adult stem cells are going to end up seeing more therapeutic use. The technical problems of dedifferentiating and redifferentiating adult stem cells are admittedly formidable, but not insurmountable. Many of them will have to be solved to use embryonic stem cells anyway. I've heard that cord blood stem cells also show promise as an alternative to embryonic stem cells, although I don't know the details. [ Tuesday, October 12, 2004 02:20: Message edited by: Prince Albert in a Can ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 04:48
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All I know is that there is a serious double standard at play on the issue. Ronnie Reagan (Pres. Reagan's liberal son) pointed out in a speech that while there's a lot of hubbub about "destroying life" in order to further stem cell research, no one is willing to broach the topic that at fertility clinics, (I believe) dozens of embryos are wasted in the effort to get one child. Attacking the legitimacy of fertility clinics, however, is a political landmine, which no one, conservative or otherwise, is willing to touch. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 05:42
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Wizcoski's mother said after the second presidential debates on Friday that the Iraqis should just declare themselves stem cells and the war would be over. :P There's something that I don't totally get. I was under the impression that embryonic stem cells come from aborted fetuses. I was also under the impression that abortion is still legal in this country. Thus, fetuses are aborted every day, but we don't claim stem cells from them anymore. I don't get this because it's not a matter of destroying fetuses for research — the fetuses are already being destroyed. It's just a matter of using the resources that we have. But this is all based on a general lack of knowledge on the subject. [ Tuesday, October 12, 2004 05:43: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 06:21
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My impression was that they largely came from embryos, like those used in fertility clinics, not necessarily from aborted fetuses. EDIT: Actually, a very informative website on the topic at the University of Wisconsin-Madison can be found here. According to this site, the cells are taken from fertilized embryos less than a week old. EDIT 2: Just noticed I've made it to "Adept" status too. Huzzah! [ Tuesday, October 12, 2004 06:40: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5044
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 08:41
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quote:It is not illegal to create new stem cell lines, but the creation of and research into new lines will not recieve federal funding. Posts: 30 | Registered: Sunday, October 3 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 09:41
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Eh, evidently I am wrong. It relates to the abortion issue, but is not directly connected with abortion. Still, as far as I can tell, the point remains: these embryos exist all over the place and are just being tossed out. Why not use them? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4256
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 09:49
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Yes that does not make to much sense to me either. I don't exactly like abortion, but just if it is going to happen, why not do as well as you can out of it? To just waste it all is... stupid. Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 11:07
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I would prefer anytime experiments with human stem cells of cruel animal experiments. It's a big mistake to think, tests on rats, mice, cats and primacies can always be applied to humans. Human medicine should be tested on humans. Or on stem cells and embryos. -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 11:25
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That simply isn't the way medical trials are conducted. In vitro tests are always the first, and they are conducted on all kinds of cell cultures. Human, animal, anything. However, once a drug or therapy has been approved in those tests, the next step has to be into a full organism. It would be better from a research perspective to go straight into a human model, but the risks are not considered acceptable. Instead, tests are carried out in the animal model that most closely matches humans in the particular organs in question. As for systemic effects, we can only hope the results correlate as it goes into human trials. Yes, the only necessary phase is the human clinical trials, but going straight to human test subjects is a flagrant violation of human rights. And you wouldn't get any willing patients, either. Not all animal tests are lethal, and none are excessively cruel. Yes, animals may be deliberately infected with diseases or otherwise turned into appropriate models, but there is no undue and unnecessary suffering involved. Believe me, there are plenty of watchdog organizations overseeing that. Stem cell research isn't research on the effects of other things on embryos. It's the study of the uses of stem cells on other things. —Alorael, who apologizes for jumping onto another topic. To return to stem cells briefly, loss of government funding is effectively a moratorium on research. It's very difficult to conduct research without some kind of research grant, and most of those grants come from federal money. But hey, science isn't about research anymore. Welcome to the world of politicized medicine! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 14:13
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Abortion is and will remain legal at least somewhere within the United States. That means that enough stem cells to make hundreds of lines daily have two places to go: the lab or the trash. That you would waste human life like that -- if you consider it life, that is -- beggars the imagination. As for why we don't use adult stem cells? Different situations. I've discussed the matter with a physician (read: I spoke about it at length with my father, who is an MD), and he told me the following: First, more stem cell lines WOULD be useful; Second, the ones we have now aren't all good (mouse cells, stuff like that); And third, using embryonic stem cells for cures would be wasteful. They are extremely useful for research purposes, because they are undiffrentiated. They can become literally anything. Adult and umbilical stem cells are more limited, since they are already diffrentiated. Since we have a lot more of those and can get them with a lot lesser costs, it makes sense to use the comparatively rare and versatile ECCs for research and A/UCCs for applied purposes. You know what's really sad, though? There's a Japanese-born physician who has isolated a chemical he associated with nerve regeneration in rats -- and he's derived the same chemical for people. So the capability exists, albeit untested, to regenerate spinal cord damage. Christopher Reeve was among those who volunteered to test it. The problem? It's a suspected carcinogen, so the FDA wouldn't allow human tests -- even with volunteers. It might give the subjects, who would otherwise spend the rest of their lives crippled from the neck down, cancer. He doesn't want to do research elsewhere because we have one of the best biochemical complexes, so research done here would come into fruition a lot faster -- also, skipping town to do it would make him seem illegitimate. A sad case, but a hopeful one. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 14:46
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It's not another topic, Alo. AFAIK, stem cell research has been developed to replace the research with rhesus monkeys - it's also a lot cheaper to use cell cultures than animals. And safer. Remember Contergan. It was tested on rats, hamsters, rabbits, monkeys and others. Human medication tests on animals are a scientific fraud. Hence, stem cell research should be highly welcome. Indeed, Bush rends his country a bad service by shortening the federal research funding. The most qualified scientists will emigrate to places, where research is supported. ^_^ A department-leader of our university openly said, he would appreciate Bush's re-election - four years ago, he could recruit some excellent cracks from American universities. -------------------- ^ö^ vegetarians are sexy. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 15:49
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Bush did not say he wouldn't fund stem-cell research. He said he wouldn't fund embryonic stem cell research of new fetuses. He recognized, however, the number of untouched fetuses still held in labs across the nation, and would support looking into those. However, using abortion to get stem-cells is destroying life, and adult stem cell research is not. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5005
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 15:59
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quote:Ok, here we go. Adult stem cells are, of course, already developed and come from sources (such as the nose) that are open to being damaged or at least significantly altered, making them completely unreliable to conduct research on. Embryonic stem cells are untouched and provide information about the human body at its inital points of formation. That gives way more insight into tissue formation, nerves, etc. It's your own conservative ideology that abortion is murder; it's not the case for everyone. Btw, Christopher Reeve just died. Anyone know the cause by chance? -------------------- Beware the Were-Rabbit! Posts: 45 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00 |
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For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 16:17
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quote:I will say this once, loud and clear, and expect it not to need saying again. We do not use abortions to generate stem cells. Ahem. There we go. No children would be struck down in their infancy in the name of science. The embryos that go into embryonic stem cell research come from the embryos kept in fertility clinics, not aborted fetuses. Furthermore, their use in science is an afterthought, not the reason for their creation. Any embryos that aren't used in research will just be kept frozen until they're thrown away. Bush could give a quadrillion dollars to stem cell research and not one human life would be lost. It has nothing to do with your definition of life, or a desire to disregard its sanctity. It's just simple common sense, and to refuse to fund this research is a senseless waste. [ Tuesday, October 12, 2004 16:18: Message edited by: Sarachim ] Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 16:20
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quote:According to CNN.com, Reeve died of heart failure as a result of a serious systemic infection from a pressure wound. It's supposedly a rather common complication in the paralyzed. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4256
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written Tuesday, October 12 2004 16:22
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The question that was asked about aborted fetuses still has not been answered. Would they work? Why are they not kept if they would? The only reason that I can see opposition for this is that it would give prospectus mothers the exscuse that they were doing the abortion for "science". But that seems a bit far fetched. So.... Do they work? Ah and was the starter of this post starting this post as a memorial to Reeves? With the name, the subject and all it kinda seems likely. [ Tuesday, October 12, 2004 16:24: Message edited by: m's devotee ] Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 13 2004 00:00
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Even fairly early on in fetal development, most cells are already differentiating or even fully differentiated. I don't think stem cells from aborted fetuses would be as useful. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, October 13 2004 04:28
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Please use the link I provided earlier - very useful information on the topic. To clarify: EMBRYONIC stem cells come from EMBRYOS, not FETUSES. Cheers! Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 13 2004 05:42
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I'm aware of this. m appears to be aware of this too; he was asking if you could get stem cells from fetuses that are similar to embryonic stem cells in potential. I think the answer's no, and that fetal cells would be much more similar to adult cells in terms of differentiation, but as far as I can see the site doesn't actually address that issue in particular. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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