Europe car-free day

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AuthorTopic: Europe car-free day
Cartographer
Member # 1851
Profile Homepage #25
Dammit. Explanations are out of my league. I give up.

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"Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms

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So many strange ones around. Don't you think?
Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #26
FBM, women under 30 couldn't vote until 1928. Fact checking is good.

I agree that the demonstration, whilst it might make you feel you're doing something for the environment, is not a particularly effective action and might indeed be counter-productive.

I also should point out that for some people, use of cars is the only option. My village has both a train and a bus station and is thus relatively well served. Nevertheless, my mother could not get to her school in time to teach if she did not go by car and there are many villages that are served much worse. If you have two services a day, you more or less have to use a car. So unless you're lobbying your government for a (probably very expensive) bus service serving every village in your country twice an hour from dawn until well into the evening, you're merely trying to hector people away from one solution without providing another.

FBM, from my standpoint neither the FFJ or pro-hunt demonstrators really achieved much. FFJ still appear to be misogynistic zealots and the the revelation that the man climbing has been left by the mother of his most recent son because of his obsession with the cause wasn't really positive publicity.

The pro-hunt thing was worse. I've heard umpteen people not opposed to fox-hunting in principle or not caring who are now of the opinion that the zealots on this issue are a bunch of muppets. Whilst the Countryside Alliance is arrogant enough, those more extreme are just angering people by claiming that it is "not democracy" to ban something that by all appearances the majority of people do not support. It is democracy, you can tell that because the commons keep voting for it. The issue is whether it's right or not.

Another thing which alienates the moderate supporters of hunting is the threat of direct action if hunting is banned. It's not a big enough issue. It's not an issue over which you should threaten to bring the M25 to a standstill.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #27
I was waiting for someone to pull me up on that.

Not only did they have to be over 30, they had to be a landowner or married to a landowner.

Also, while his girlfriend did leave him, it didn't cause any major publicity about that. To most people, it never happened. It's all about what they actually see in the media.

The pro-hunt supporters were given an extremely bad rap in the press. Many considering them to be too radical. And what they don't see they don't know.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #28
quote:
Originally written by Fear Uncertainty and Custer:

....

Listen to the quiet, subdued voice of logic here: average Swiss person has little interest one way or another in the ecology, and all he or she knows about it that day is that some jerk demonstrating against ecological damage by automobiles made them late to an appointment and they had to reschedule... suppose the election is the next day. Who is going to win that, you or the opponent?

You don't know the Swiss. They have high interest in ecological matters and they care about traffic. Bicycles have become a very popular setting, we have bicycle routes in all the cities and if yo have to deliver something fast, you take a bike courier. Companies encourage their employers to come with the bike by giving them free bicycles, and so on.
Our municipal authorities made recently a poll about life quality in the city. 70% of the poeople say: traffic is the biggest problem. The town-council discusses now, whether they could establish a maut-system like London.
We really do not need so much car traffic in the city, everybody knows it. Driving car in the city it's the slowest and most stupid way to move: You never find a parking place, you drive detours in consequence of one-way streets, and you often stuck in jams (building sites, accidents, daily rush hours, festivals and other demonstrations ^_^)

Aggressive indirect action never won anything in a civilized society. If you want to affect change, do the Christlike thing and melt quietly into the crowd. Become an avatar of justice, above reproach -- earn respect rather than demanding it.
You misunderstood. The demonstration on wednesday was neither an agressive action nor illicit. It was a happy, peaceful manifestation of our concern, granted, organized and escorted by the police. Milla mentioned it: hooligans are much more inconvenient than political demonstrations.
And of course street action goes always together with other political work, the melting inside, as you call it. Yes, we have our representatives in the local council.

..... The group of people demonstrating in the street would have accomplished more handing out fliers or storming Bern with Kalashnikovs. ......
Again: It's not necessary, because we have our representatives in Bern too.

...... Perhaps the fact we have been democratic for far longer than Europe -- and we are far more respectful of democracy and the instutition thereof -- makes us more politically pragmatist, I dunno.
.......


We have direct democracy since 1848. In plebiscites they ask us what we want, what shall happen with our taxes, whether highways are built or not, whether cultural support should increase or not. We can change laws by right of initiative and obligatory referendum - we have, AFAIK, the real sovereignty of people.
America on the other hand has become a "democratic" embedded plutocracy. Salute.

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^ö^ vegetarians are sexy.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #29
Hmm... sounds like an interesting place to live. Actual direct democracy. Now that is what I call a pile of koolbeans.

The problem in this case, Alec, is that you tried to apply your own national values onto something in which they didn't apply. Both nations have their pride (and a heck of alot of it last time I checked), but for very different reasons. Not everything is how you expect or how it is portrayed by others. I think we all need to learn that.

A majority of us, on these boards, live in countries which "fly the flag of democracy", yet are closer to autocracies and plutocracies. We are used to coming up against brick walls and having to look for a way round.

What we should be doing, instead, is to try to knock those walls down. To bring our nations into actual democracy. Elected by the people. For the people. That listens to the people. Our politicians shouldn't be spending all their time looking for publicity and trying to get re-elected. They should be spending their time attempting to "better their fellow man" and actually acting according to what the electorate want.

If that should be a cleaner environment, then that should happen. If that should be better working conditions, then that should happen. If it should be a truckload of cuddly toys, well damn it, then that should happen.

*sigh*
The first reaction to this would most likely be, "yeah right, like that's ever going to happen. Stop dreaming." Christ! That's my first reaction. But I know that it can be done. That it's not some idealistic crap.

Ach. 03:29 again. Oh well. One day. One day...

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #30
*applauds FBM*
I may not agree with everything you say, but I certainly agree that the system needs to be changed. I tried to start a message board where a new system would be planned, but nobody took it seriously. I thought it was because nobody cared. But as Djur so eloquently put it on Desperance, "That was because nobody wants to be in a revolution spearheaded by a prancing boner."
Anyway, maybe eventually someone will take me seriously and things will change.

By the way, every time I look at the title of this topic, I read it as "Europe-free car day". For one day a year, Europe disappears off the face of the earth, allowing the cars to freely plunge into the pit formed in the process.

[ Friday, September 24, 2004 17:44: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #31
But you are a prancing boner. Who's going to take you seriously?
Whenever you've said 'we need a revolution', you've never even said what FOR. Yes, the system is wrong. I think that an ardent neo-Nazi would agree the system is wrong. What the hell are you proposing revolution without concrete purpose for?

Even the Revolution had an overarching goal.

PS: FBM, I acknowledge there are problems with democracy, but that's nothing but an argument for isolationism. Yes, we need to right our own house, but that does NOT prevent us from keeping the various dictatorships of the world from killing more of their citizens.

Our system of government will never be perfect, and if we wait for it to achieve as perfect a state as it can get, by the time we get around to making a definitive stance on the right of a state to exist without ensuring the basic freedoms of its people, it will be too late for billions of people.

'Charity begins at home' is a greedy sentiment, and I'd be happier if more people didn't share it.

[ Friday, September 24, 2004 18:04: Message edited by: Fear Uncertainty and Custer ]

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The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest.
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #32
Fine. No-one wants to be led by a "prancing boner".

How about someone who can use their head? Someone who can adapt to the situation? Someone who may have their bad points, but you follow them because they seem to know what they're doing?

It's not particularly easy finding someone who fits the bill exactly. Christ, I couldn't do it at this moment in time. It's not a matter of anyone taking you seriously, it's a matter of them actually believing you.

And, Alec, the reason we propose a revolution is the lack of democracy. It is "power for the few and the rest can go fish". Strangely enough, there are people in this world who would actually like to live in a true democracy. Not only that, but they believe that it can happen.

And sure, it may look to you like an argument for isolationism. But personally I believe that isolationism is a damn stupid idea. Especially in Britain, which relies on immigration and good foreign policies for trading.

As for the prevention of dictatorships commiting mass murder and genocide, I am all for intervention, should the majority wish it. An overwhelming majority here were against the Iraq war without the UN resolution. Therefore, I think it was the wrong thing to do. A majority, however, were FOR it, if the resolution was passed. THEN, that would have been democracy.

There was no imminent threat to our people or other nations' people.

And, yes, should we wait for it to achieve a democratic state, we will be waiting too long. That is why change should be effected.
Decisions do not take that long to make. Should we live in a truly democratic nation and another problem, like Iraq, occur, where there was no previous majority opinion, today, I would have no compunction about calling a referrendum for tomorrow. Which would be a lot quicker than Bush's decision to act.

An actual clear, present and extreme danger to any nation or its' people should be acted upon according to the wishes of the people.

Just because true democracy is an alien thing to most of us, it doesn't mean it can't work. Just because the Soviet Union failed, it didn't mean that communism couldn't work.

Too many people have the attitude that they are one person, who can't make a difference. Well, I ask them, if you aren't going to try, who the heck is? I'm trying. Specifically speaking, I'm going to do it from the inside. If you lead a country where people are unable to question your laws, well, they can't do anything until it's too late. And it might just work.

People used to say "give peace a chance". I say give actual democracy a chance.

What? Scared you might like it?

[ Saturday, September 25, 2004 03:43: Message edited by: FatBatMonkey ]

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #33
*applauds FBM again*
Pretty much hit the nail on the head. Also, in case you haven't noticed, we are being ruled by fascists. I don't want someone else's beliefs forced on me or anybody else. That is another reason.
*hurls unwarranted insults at FBM just for good measure*

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The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
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Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #34
I was about to be scared. People actually being half nice to me here. And then even applause.

Fortunately, having read the entiriety of your post, I am reassured that this must be a temporary fad. Well, hopefully.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #35
There are two things that urgently need to be addressed here. One is ADoS's rampaging sagotry. The second is FBM's idealistic but essentially unfounded optimism.

In the meantime, I'll point out that Switzerland isn't entirely wonderful. There's its famously arcane banking laws whereby revealing practically anything about an account is tantamount to treason and the fact that it has been complicit in helping very many dictators and corrupt rulers over the years to build up vast fortunes stolen from their peoples.

We'll start with FBM. Or as I refer to him both for reasons of awfulness and because he looks good in a dress, Dorothy.

Look around you. I don't think we're in 6th century Athens anymore. Cleisthenes is not going to appear and make everything better. Direct democracy isn't plausible on a nationwide level. You have to have elected representatives or you can't get anything done. Even an anarchist would accept that one can't have an community of 60 million people in which everybody makes the decision on everything.

Ergo, we have to have elected representatives. Entirely likely, you weren't disputing that, you just wanted them to be more accountable. So do we all. You can't have a revolution on that. The tax burden is low, plague is not endemic, nobody is opening fire on peaceful protesters. Chances of angry mobs are minimal. I wouldn't march for that and I'm young and left-wing. People with anything to lose wouldn't touch you with a bargepole. And a revolution needs wide reaching aims. Revolution aims to overthrow the system.

I'll leave aside the problems that then follow, because you ought to be able to work it out yourself and nobody but ADoS really appears to believe that revolution in this sense is the obvious solution anyway. And given his fondness for tying piano wire around his scrotum, I think we can discount his views.

If we assume that you meant not so much revolution as enforced reform then still a problem exists. What reforms do you want? Removal of corporate interest? I'd like that but if the upheaval was limited to one state, they'd just annihilate your economy by boycott. Ability to remove a representative at any time? Good one. Most wouldn't go for something along the lines of the Workers' and Soldiers' Soviets of Petrograd but something more moderate might pass.

I realise this is unclear but sadly I found your post to also be unclear. Specifics would help. Revolutions tend to require either intense anger or well thought out ideology.

ADoS, as previously stated you are a sagot with an unhealthy (for you, not the human race) liking for genital self-mutilation. You are also impossibly ignorant. Being ruled by fascists? Drop the straw man rubbish. Calling a conservative a Fascist is not a good way to make your arguments sound cogent. Yes, Bush is prepared to restrict civil liberties. Yes, there are suggestions of electoral dishonesty and gamesmanship (although that kind of thing is nothing new, it's just that the Democrats don't have anybody as efficiently amoral as Rove, and as to actual corruption, any funny business there is is as nothing compared to say, Chicago 1960.)

But he's not a Fascist. Fascist!=very right wing. It might help if you actually learnt a little bit about what Fascism does mean. Bush just has an aggressive and seemingly ineffective foreign policy, a terrible economic record due to laissez faire policies and a 'jobs for the boys' attitude and a rather distasteful disdain for actual thinking.

I therefore declare ADoS to be Lucretia Borgia.

IMAGE(http://www2.egenet.com.tr/mastersj/ottoman-lucretia-borgia-two.jpg)

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 3149
Profile Homepage #36
Eh, I'd describe neoconservatism as Fascism Lite. I mean, they're in favor of centralizing authority, they're making astonishing headway towards suppressing real opposition, they're unquestionably belligerent and nationalist, and the racism is there.

True, they aren't fascists yet, but they're obviously going that way. Only thing missing is a command economy.

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I've got a pyg in a poke.
Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #37
How nice. Such words are... an inspiration to us all. No, really. Such common sense is a rarity.

However, I am far from idealistic. I am closest to being a realist, except realism is quite deceased. I try to understand the factors, then base an assumption on the possible future. Equally, I am not an optimist. I generally go with the percentages of chance.

These points, are, well, beside the main point.

Direct democracy? Hmm... the only time I referred to direct democracy was at half three in the morning, as a mistaken adjective to Swizterland. Mis-phrasing m'afraid. I personally think that in the present voting system, direct democracy is impossible. As you say, a nice idea, but physically unworkable, at the moment.

Cleisthenes... the name wasn't immediately familiar. The deeds I recognise though and a quick search told me enough.

Revolutions. I actually meant the second dictionary definition. Effecting a major change. Sure, I meant it in a political way, but I was not suggesting overthrowing the government. But you got it anyway.

Reforms, domestic policy-wise, would be cutting out middle-government. There are hundreds of thousands of workers in the administration that are simply not required. Now this is not to say that they would just be fired. Instead I'd like to see them take up key skills work.

Also, for budgets for schools, hospitals etc. to be granted directly to them. This cuts out alot of "skimming", gives them what they need and makes them able to access it.

The police service is a good example of this. The budget goes up year on year, above inflation, yet in terms of actual visible effect, there are less visible patrols, more "specials" and even more paperwork and statistics.

I'd like to see a foreign policy where we didn't hand out twenty six billion to the EU every year, who squander it worse than our own government departments. Where we didn't follow the every whim of our closest allies, that lead us into morally corrupt wars.

There are so many common sense things. Things that you don't even need a brain to figure out.

I will confess confusion over "removal of corporate interest" and terming Britain a "state".

As for removing a representative at any time, I think it would be most sensible to have a system where if a certain percentage of his/her electorate wanted him/her gone, a by-election should occur, with the representative made to fight for their position.

As for anger and ideology, I have plenty of the first, but keep it in a little box, to bring out on special occaisions. And I have spent so long contemplating ideology, that I really don't remember what started it.

Anything not clear, just ask.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 22
Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by FatBatMonkey:

I'd like to see a foreign policy where we didn't hand out twenty six billion to the EU every year, who squander it worse than our own government departments.
Mmm. Helping those countries within the EU less fortunate than ourselves is criminal. (I'll grant you that some of the money does get wasted, but only as is natural in a bureaucracy that size)

quote:
There are so many common sense things. Things that you don't even need a brain to figure out.

Evidently.

[ Saturday, September 25, 2004 09:43: Message edited by: Morgan ]
Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #39
I am glad that you identified yourself as a nationalist, efficiency-wanker wagot before I actually managed to get into something resembling an involved discussion with you.

Mostly, I find that anyone who opposes the EU always has big, fancy reasons for it, but it just about always boils down to them being a wagot who beats off to pictures of their respective monarch.
Everyone would be a lot happier if you were to bear in mind that there's no real physical barrier between you and Europe any more, and the cultural barrier is as weak as tissue paper. I'm beginning to believe the only reason you people resent the French anymore is that they're bright enough not to prance around believing they're still a colonial empire, and it's high time you came to terms with the fact that England is about as economically and politically powerful as California and continuing to whine about being part of Europe is just going to screw you harder.

Then again, you're apparently also of the school who believes beaureaucracy = inefficient = bad!!!, so I'm not bothering with follow-ups here.

[ Saturday, September 25, 2004 09:46: Message edited by: Fear Uncertainty and Custer ]

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The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest.
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #40
What? Didn't fancy actually using your brain?

My personal views have nothing into the matter. I have very few opinions and those that I do, I do not force others to listen to them.

I am by no means a nationalist. Yes, I want the people of Britain to be able to make their own choices about what is in their best interests. But I am by no means a nationalist when it is at the expense of our healthy relationships with other countries.

And if I like something to be efficient and work, rather than an orchestrated shambles, well sue my socks off for all I care, damn it.

And to not discuss anything, based solely upon who you are talking to doesn't agree with you or you do not like them, well that, sir, is hypocracy.

Morgan; if another country within the EU requires aid and subsidising by fellow members, then fine, direct assistance, whether it be in monetary form or otherwise, is an excellent idea. To assist them by paying currency into the EU, when there is no guarantee, with the present economic system, that even half of it will reach those who actually need it. That is what I dislike.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #41
quote:
Originally written by I Would Pay Your Wergild:

....
In the meantime, I'll point out that Switzerland isn't entirely wonderful. There's its famously arcane banking laws whereby revealing practically anything about an account is tantamount to treason and the fact that it has been complicit in helping very many dictators and corrupt rulers over the years to build up vast fortunes stolen from their peoples.
....

Switzerland is too small, to be an agrarian country, thus we have pharmaceutical industry, precision tools, assurances and ... banking.
Worldwide you can find only a few banks, who are not involved into dirty business. Cleaning black and drug money, taking bloody money from dictators is not typical for Switzerland, but for financial places - think of Singapore, Honk-Kong, New York, Luxembourg, Cayman-Islands, Bermudas, London and other offshore centers.
I assume that Switzerland might be the most correct of all. Our "banking arcanum" is obsolete, if the owner of an account is accused of crime. They freeze the money until the end of the current investigation and give it back to the people, organisations, whatever. For example Marcos' millions have been freezed until the new government of Philippines had a distribution plan for the money.
Believe me, the laws for Swiss banks are restrictive. Our Bankers have nightmares about the loss of clients towards "safer" places.

quote:
by BtI: ...
Direct democracy isn't plausible on a nationwide level. You have to have elected representatives or you can't get anything done. Even an anarchist would accept that one can't have an community of 60 million people in which everybody makes the decision on everything.
DD is working well in our 7 millions community. AFAIK you have already a kind of DD in California or Oregon (if you can talk about democracy in a plutocratic, corrupted system ...).

edit: I am glad that we have not to quarrel with the EU (well, we do have bilateral negotiations etc.). We'll join the club when the EU will be like Switzerland ^_^

[ Saturday, September 25, 2004 14:08: Message edited by: spy.there ]

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^ö^ vegetarians are sexy.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #42
*Because, in fact, I had only just noticed the major edit of Alec's post*

I am certainly not going to claim that bureaucracy is a bad thing. By definition, it it usually required. However, as with aspirin, you can have too much. Equally, I would never consider bureaucracy to be synonomous with inefficienty and waste. Too much of it can be a factor in it, though.

Nor have I ever said that I was against the EU. The EU is a good idea. Common trade, common values. Therefore, attempting to lecture me thusly, is... pointless. I live in the now, taking the actual facts. Not pointless history. Colonialism is dead and gone. Money and words spin the world nowadays.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #43
Defining yourself solely by what you're opposed to sure makes it easy to avoid criticism, doesn't it?

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My BoE Page
Bandwagons are fun!
Roots
Hunted!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #44
No it doesn't. By very definition, it means that an opinion is being voiced, thus it is open to criticism. I welcome criticism. The fact that I don't listen to most of it because it is not constructive, doesn't mean anything.

Besides, all I draw is a shady outline. It's up to the person that encounters me to decide what they think goes in the middle.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
Profile #45
FBM, give me specifics as to what posts in the bureaucracy exactly are not needed. Otherwise I have to assume you're working off conviction rather than fact.

In point of fact, the EU is horribly corrupt. However, the solution is to fix it, not ignore it. Multilateral solutions are less prone to corruption than bilateral ones.

The argument that Switzerland is a less corrupt tax haven than other tax havens is not a good one. As well as dictators, we also have to consider corporate money put in tax havens solely for the purpose of tax avoidance. The money corporations have for just this reason in tax havens would be enough to give the entire world primary education and health care twice over.

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Voice of Reasonable Morality
Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #46
Which bureaucracy do you mean, exactly?

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #47
quote:
Originally written by I Would Pay Your Wergild:

...
...
The argument that Switzerland is a less corrupt tax haven than other tax havens is not a good one. As well as dictators, we also have to consider corporate money put in tax havens solely for the purpose of tax avoidance. The money corporations have for just this reason in tax havens would be enough to give the entire world primary education and health care twice over.

I agree that the difference, Switzerland makes between tax crime and tax defraud is an unfair sophism. We should of course stop to support tax avoidance and give other countries the aid of law in this matter.
The pressure to do so is already high: from EU-countries, the USA, our socialist and green factions, some welfare and benefical organisations and churches. Give it some years and the bank-arcanum will fall. (The disadavantage of direct democracies is slowness -_^)

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^ö^ vegetarians are sexy.
Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 2210
Profile #48
Direct Democracy is only one vision of effective democracy. Elections don't work unless the voters are forced in a rather undemocratic manner to vote. This was true of ancient greece -- they tied up people in ropes which were dyed red to show they refused to participate in democracy. In a similar manner there should be a serious punishment for failure to vote. It is also a tremendous failing of the American system.

We would not have these idiots in office if there was forced representation. A nonparticipatory democracy isn't a democracy. If everyone had to vote as a prerequisite to citizenship it would be a lot better in the United States right now.

Also there is a terrible thing which is happening to who we get to choose. We might as well write Heinz on the forehead of Kerry and Enron on the forehead of Bush. It is impossible to remove an incumbent politician these days without massive wealth this goes all the way down to the level of mayors in major cities. It is no longer possible for an average citizen to be an elected official.

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Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh.

Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight.
Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #49
Actually, Toast, I think we all, already agreed that direct democracy was unworkable.

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Aut Tace Aut Loquere Meliora Silencio
Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00

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