Over my rather deceased cadaver. Rrrrrrr.
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| Author | Topic: Over my rather deceased cadaver. Rrrrrrr. |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, April 30 2004 14:09
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Well quite frankly I'm sure even Alec could come up with something better than most of the societies we have nowdays. I have ideas for something ALOT better than what we have now, but as any "half-baked idiot" knows, having the idea and being able to make it reality are quite often two VERY different things. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, April 30 2004 14:23
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quote:Like what? I'll be happy to tell you why they won't work and why they won't be better than the systems that we have now. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, April 30 2004 14:55
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quote:I'd start with getting rid of you. Anyone in the Isles up to a contract hit? The pay isn't so great, but the satisfaction of the job should be more than enough of a motivator. -------------------- AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX ...there really is nothing that can compare to hot gay sex with a mythological icon. --665 Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, April 30 2004 15:38
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Ah! But where would be the fun in that? Every attempt of physical violence to myself to this date has failed. Though mine is an unusual name and so I'd be fairly easy to track down, there would be a kind of poetic justice I suppose. It would still be quite amusing though. Though I must warn anyone who feels that they want to, better make it good, 'cause otherwise I'll get back up and give them a resoundingly good crack. OH well. And Kel, how about this for, "policies I would implement if I could": adulthood is determined by taking a standardized test, like an IQ test only for maturity of character. Upon "passing", you have all the rights and responsibilities of an adult; voting, working full-time etc. but also being judged in the courts as an adult, paying taxes etc. I'm still working out the exact details, but it is extremely do-able. And would make alot more sense. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, April 30 2004 15:48
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So in other words, you are going to administer a standardized test to determine maturity. I find the insult on my character intensely ironic in this context, don't you? -------------------- AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX ...there really is nothing that can compare to hot gay sex with a mythological icon. --665 Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, April 30 2004 16:01
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Indeed. If it's the ONLY thing I can do perfectly, it's spotting and appreciating irony. However, in this case, I would like to point out that that was not serious, based on that the first thing I put up was in all likelyhood to be flamed.  .And at what point did I ever attempt a slur on your esteemed  character[ Friday, April 30, 2004 16:03: Message edited by: FatBatMonkey ] -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, April 30 2004 16:27
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quote:So does this mean that you have yet to say anything? Because I could argue against your adulthood-based-on-test policy, but if you weren't serious, there'd be no point. And if you weren't serious, my above statements still stand. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Friday, April 30 2004 19:02
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You know, it's very convenient to be able to say you were just joking when someone essentially proves that you are the worst sort of idiot. Convenient, but as effective as warding a bull away from you by flapping your penis due north. -------------------- AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX ...there really is nothing that can compare to hot gay sex with a mythological icon. --665 Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 02:18
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No, I just believe that the only way that policy could be feasable is as described, and so is just pointless. If I could think of the way to make it feasable, while still retaining the core essentials of the idea, then yes, I would try it in a second. However, despite ideals, it is highly impractical to create a personalized test that would suit each person. Perhaps if split up into a dozen separate tests, of which you only need to "pass" say, a trio or quartet of, it might be possible. Of course the benefits of this "graduation" would have to be accompanied with various other policies to encourage beneficial traits... Quite a few things need ironing. However, even for you Alec, seemingly drastically affected with an apathy and lost faith for current forms of government, when it is done, it will be a masterpiece. Of comedy, elegance or practicality I have not yet decided. And upon that I always keep in mind that there is always room for improvement. I do wish you would at least keep an open mind Alec. Just because someone does not have the intellect, the vocabulary nor your "perspective", it does not mean that they are inferior. Even the most unintellegent of people can have veritable strokes of brilliance. Just because someone has what you may consider, to be polite, a "radical" idea, or more to the point, stupid idea, doesn't mean that it will not work. Sometimes the most illogical solutions can be, not only the most simple, but the best. If those words are not true of you, then I am afraid that you mis-represent yourself, and should take stock. Oh well. Rambling half-rant. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 126
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 04:23
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Grraah. That's the sort of thing to make you consider running off into the woods like your crazy survivalist cousin. Anyway, here is advice: Guns are useful for killing. You may consider obtaining some. Hope they will not have to be used. Then the saucers appear in the sky, Batman dies by falling down a flight of stairs, and the sewer mutants sacrifice me to their slime god. It's all planned out, but it sure isn't a divine plan as far as I can see. I am clearly going a bit insane, please disregard the silliness, it is meant purely in jest. OBEY. SUBMIT. -------------------- Check out the DIARY, why doncha? It won't bite. Probably. "We were heart companions, We were companions in the woods, We were fellows of the same bed, Where we used to sleep the balmy sleep. After mortal battles abroad, In countries many and far distant, Together we used to practice, and go Through each forest, learning with Scathach". Posts: 161 | Registered: Monday, October 8 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4023
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 06:04
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sorry did a dubel post. see below. [ Saturday, May 01, 2004 06:10: Message edited by: arathorn III ] -------------------- Jesus saves. Posts: 88 | Registered: Monday, February 23 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4023
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 06:08
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So you say its a "invasion of privacy" eh? Well bush has put it in there to keep you safe. So as not to have another (I am sorry to say this) 9/11. Any thing put in to place to keep us safe I am all for. -------------------- Jesus saves. Posts: 88 | Registered: Monday, February 23 2004 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 06:11
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1. This is Britain. De jure, if not de facto, Bush does not rule here. 2. ID cards won't stop another 9/11. It's perfectly possible to get in legally and then commit a terrorist atrocity. 3. I find myself wishing I had your address. 4. And a lump of two by four. 5. Also patience. Alec, we don't kill people just because we disagree with them. We just fantasise about it a little. As a nation, the French could probably be characterised as xenophobic and arrogant. Unfortunately, here our national sport seems to be destroying our own greenhouses. -------------------- "I particularly like the part where he claims not to know what self-aggrandisement means, then demands more wing-wongs up his virgin ass" Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 08:44
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quote:You're bordering on eugenics, here. And the possibilities of corruption in the systems that you have so far mentioned are not only extraordinary, but also astonishingly dire in their consequences. Imagine if becoming an "adult" and of sound mind became a subjective thing based on tests for everyone. I assume the right to vote would still be limited to adults. Who decides what content goes into these tests? Imagine that someone like George W. Bush (I'm sure you have people like that over there, even if your current leader isn't) got his hands on the content of these tests. Then your system would disenfranchise anyone with unpopular views. It could become like the literacy tests of the Jim Crow American South, disenfranchising certain class or sectors of society based on prejudice. This is BAD. Sometimes people with unpopular views have important things to say (see Martin Luther King, Jr). Sure, in your utopia, corruption like this wouldn't exist, but in real life, it would. I continue to hold it self-evident that all people have certain inalienable rights, maturity level and intelligence aside. We cannot trust other human beings to judge when and how we are capable of governing ourselves. Thus, your idea performs obscene acts on farm animals. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 10:14
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Bah. Genetic improvement? Not blooming likely. Traits, however, was the wrong word, right now I'm not sure of the exact word. Something more along the lines of... actions. I don't know. I need to find the word I'm searching for. But I'm not a believer in "bettering the race" by genetic improvement. Do note that despite your criticism of possible corruption, I never make a plan which could not work. It may have an extremely long set of odds to succeed, but I work best with long odds, most importantly, most of my plans which have low probability rates, are in fact, the ones that are ususally successful. Simply because I take more time, care and patience over these than the "dead certs". Also I would like to point out to you two quotes, both of which are quite apt, though I am non-violent. "One man may not be equal to another. A bullet renders all men equal." "Humans have no "rights". These "rights" are like certain peoples' "personal space" - they are merely privileges, arranged at an understanding with society, that can be easily revoked when it no longer serves society." Bleh, feh, meh. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 10:59
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quote:But my point was that even if I were to trust you to take time, care, and patience, and even if I were to trust you to design a system that would be fair and equitable, these parameters that you've already laid out would outlast you. An effective governing system lasts longer than its leader. And over time, your system would become more corrupt until it became worse than the system we have in place right now. quote:My point, again, is that it is not necessarily *you* that I am objecting to. It is your successors. I wouldn't trust you, either, but even if I did, my objections would still stand. quote:It's not that it probably wouldn't work. It's that it DEFINITELY wouldn't work for long periods of time. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 11:37
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Okay, I take your point. However I do not have to lead until death. Only until it is in a stable cycle. Once it is in a stable cycle it will be "unchallengelable". In the sense of, it would serve no individuals' purpose to tamper with it because it is, shall we say, elegant. By elegant I mean so complex that it is quite hard to fathom unless you know how it works and even if you could, it would be nigh on impossible to turn it to your own benefit or predjudice. Kind of like mathematical "rules" in a way. And so it would be safe until it is obsolete. To tear something down, you don't need to understand it - a sledgehammer will do fine. It would not last forever. But it might last just long enough. It might sound far-fetched, but it is in the realm of possibility. Trust is not required. I don't think I could ask anyone to trust me based upon I know exactly who and what I am. Besides, does anyone trust a political leader? Anyone? Anyone at all? Come on don't be shy... thought not. I don't need a friend, I need a human being dammit. Given time, after I have completed the design, I, myself would find areas for improvement, let alone the nation. I am not a perfectionist, I merely strive for a design that works. And in all designs there are flaws - things that are not taken into account. If I had the power to do this, then who knows, I might even find a way to solve the active biggotry that you seem so afraid of. Anything is possible. Bleh, feh, meh. Not slept for 36 hours rantilicious. One last thing, NEVER, EVER say that something is certain or definite or impossible. NEVER use the one or the zero. Anything is in the realms of possibility. You are welcome to be good at picking holes in my politics, but I am just as good in picking holes in even the simplest sentence. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Saturday, May 1 2004 12:37
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quote:I think that speaks for itself. quote:Has this ever, at any point in history, been true of any political system? You are becoming even more utopian, here. The only way to create a system in which it would not serve any individual's purpose to change that system would be to give every person exactly what he or she wants at the very same instant that that person wants it. Otherwise, people will always have demands that aren't being met, and they will demand change to meet their needs better. quote:This is not even remotely what elegant means, but I'll let that slide. So you're saying that your system would be utterly corruption-proof due to its complexity? My guess is that within years, the educated class would come to an understanding of your system and figure out ways to exploit it. Complexity alone is a shoddy defense. One of the greatest gatherings of political thinkers in the history of the world (some would say the single greatest), the Second Continental Congress and its succeeding bodies in the early days of the United States, concluded that a corruption-proof system was impossible in any practical way to design. If you think you can do better than all of them put together, well, either you're one of the most brilliant people ever born, or you need to examine your ego. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Monday, May 3 2004 09:36
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Ah fun. You pass judgement on the second quote, yet that and the third was a whole point. Vis, the second comment was... pointless? "This is not even remotely what elegant means, but I'll let that slide." I mean elegance to a point. Elegance can be complex and complexity can be elegant by definition. To describe it as Utopian is stupid as, by my own admission, it would eventually be obsolete through new concepts of governance emerging. It would not be corruption-proof, but would be difficult to corrupt. And complexity alone IS a shoddy defence, that's why it is not the only defence. But to make people of the other defences would be - stupid. To make aware is to offer circumvention. I don't claim that I am any more brilliant, creative or whatever than anyone else in the world. In fact, if anyone has been paying attention, I do not believe myself to be exceptional in any area. Except ONE. I possess the belief of rarity in one and only one sense: my sole, true belief in myself. You will find an extreme few with any self-belief nowadays. EXTREMELY rare to find one with total self-belief. I believe in me. That I can do what I can and in some cases, extremely well. I suppose this gives me the unfortunate side-effect of ego, but it is a price, for such a useful thing, I pay gladly. Oh well. Bleh, feh, meh. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, May 3 2004 11:00
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quote:My comment was not pointless, because I am saying that any number of defenses will not create a system that is "nigh on impossible to turn it to your own benefit or predjudice." I am saying that in the real world, this is virtually impossible. The comment about your ideas being utopian is simply to say that, by imagining that you can make a system to which no one will substantitively object, you must be imagining a world in which everyone's needs are completely satisfied, a perfect world, a utopia. But let's follow the reasoning here. You propose that your system will enter a state of being that you call a "steady cycle," which is characterized by the quality of being unchallengeable because it is elegant, ie complex, to the point that no one can manipulate it. Essentially, as you wrote it, steady cycle <= unchallengeable = elegant = complex. Complexity is the only defense against tampering that you mentioned. However, now you say: quote:This is the same reasoning that has led to the most brutal police states in history. Simply put, you would impose a government on citizens without the informed consent of the governed. This puts you squarely in the same mode of political thought as Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler. And in order to allow you to do this, people would have to trust you to create a good system. Once you are no longer the leader, people would have to trust your successors. And I'm saying that even if you are good, your successors might be bad. And if no one except for you and your succeeding leaders knows what the rules are, then how will anyone know if leaders break them? quote:This puts you in the same ideological camp as a cult leader. Your belief is more dangerous than helpful. It is important to recognize one's ability to make mistakes and to attempt to rectify them. By the way, Dictionary.com: Elegant. A highlight: "Combining simplicity, power, and a certain ineffable grace of design" (emphasis added). -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Tuesday, May 4 2004 08:03
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Nope. Nope. Whole point is: I deal in practicallities I have thought up a system of governance better than the one we presently have, specifically it would WORK better than the one we have It is very difficult to change the core fundamentals which govern it Elegance doesn't HAVE to be simple, in this case it is, the whole point being, if you know what to look for it's simple, if you're swinging wildly at random, complicated NO, the governed will know exactly what's what, just that they will not understand certain parts of it I'll be damned if it turns into a police state Self-belief is not an ideology. It is a form of confidence that is key in planning. Worst case scenarios are all well and good, but if you believe that something won't work, then it might not simply because of that belief. I do make mistakes. Every human being does. But dwelling on the negative is not a good idea. Bleh, feh, meh. And that, quite frankly, is all I have to say on the matter. BTW. cross-topic attacks aren't nice. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Tuesday, May 4 2004 08:22
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Explain your ideal system of government and tell me why no one's tried it yet, then. Go on. -------------------- AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX ...there really is nothing that can compare to hot gay sex with a mythological icon. --665 Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Tuesday, May 4 2004 08:27
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There is no worse thing than an unchangeable mode of governance. And having self-belief doesn't make you any less of a jagot. -------------------- "I particularly like the part where he claims not to know what self-aggrandisement means, then demands more wing-wongs up his virgin ass" Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Tuesday, May 4 2004 10:27
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I debated putting in the effort to do this for a good five minutes or so, but in the end, my irritation won. quote:Good. Then you'll recognize the implications of my statement about your theory being utopian. quote:In what sense do you mean that it would work better? It would be more fair? Just? Efficient in continuing the day-to-day tasks of government, like building roads and such? More efficient policing the country? Or what? Since you have given no details of the system, we can't know this. quote:This is nothing new. Look at the United States. A constitutional amendment needs two-thirds majorities in both houses of the legislature and ratification by three-fourths of the states. This has only happenes twenty-seven times in two-hundred fifteen years (and excluding the Bill of Rights, seventeen times in about two hundred years). That's pretty darn hard to change. quote:Note the definition posted above. quote:Sure. Whatever. quote:If they DON'T UNDERSTAND certain parts of the government, then they can't give INFORMED CONSENT to it. quote:Are you ready for hell? Because a police state is exactly where this is headed, and your disbelief will not stop that. I'm telling you that no system is, has ever been, or will ever be immune to corruption. And if people don't understand how the system works, then they won't know how it's going wrong when it does go wrong. This will allow problems to persist far longer than if people understand the system. quote:Self-confidence is important. Most political leaders wouldn't have done anything useful without self-confidence. But "total self-belief," which you said you possess, is a serious problem, especially among political leaders. What is self-belief? It is the belief in the rightness of one's own actions and judgments. What is total self belief, then? It is the unquestioning (and unquestionable) belief in the rightness of all of one's own actions and judgments. This leads to an inability to admit mistakes, which causes people to repeat those mistakes and exacerbate the situation. quote:Then you don't have *total* self-belief. And although assigning blame and activities like that can be quite useless, developing contingency plans in case things don't work the way you expect is extremely important. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, May 4 2004 12:24
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FBM - if you don't like what groups accomplish for themselves, then why don't you form a group to stop them? Groups are an infinitely useful device to get what you want - it's called collective action. Examples abound: In the U.S., the Jewish community is quite adept at pushing a pro-Israel policy; the Cuban community in Miami is able to lobby the government to keep the embargo; the steel industry and workers use their collective influence to insure (frankly) incredible amounts of international trade protection, considering its size (less than 800,000 workers). Groups work because they usually have a lot more at stake in policy decisions that effect them than the average citizen. Take the steel industry example: lower steel tariffs = big decrease in profits for the steel industry + slight to almost negligible price reduction for products incorporating steel for consumers. Sure, the wider populace would benefit much more on the whole because of reduced prices, but the difference is not as important to a person saving $100 on a car as it is to Joe Steelworker losing his job. The steel worker has much greater incentive to get his buddies together and make noise, and in government, where the squeeky wheel (read: sources of money and votes) gets the grease, they're heard. A somewhat shoddy explanation of collective action, but I think I'm on the mark. Those interested should check out Mancur Olson's "Power and Prosperity" - it's good stuff. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |