Profile for Vagabond


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Weird glitch with NPC stats (Celt) in Nethergate
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Member # 9695
Profile #2
Druid merc is for Romans.
Celts get to pick from two fighter types. They have identical stats, except the Roman guy has Tool Use 4, and the Celt gal has Fairy Lore 4.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Challenging Nethergate "Role-Play" Character Builds in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #14
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Every point of Berserker skill you take lowers your ability to avoid attacks.
As in, gives the attacker better % chance to hit you?
Isn't it weird then, that log window shows no hints of such penalty? Tohit percentages are the same no matter how many pts of Berserker someone has. It's pretty damn easy and quick to test this too - summon monster, save the game, hit it once and let it attack you. Then reload, change Berserker skill with character editor and repeat.
Skill description doesn't say anything about lowering defense either (not that it's definite proof by itself - there's plenty misinformation in other descriptions, but still, in this case observations support what it says - increases your damage and gives mental resistance, and that's about it).
So, are you really sure about that? :P
Not that it matters much, because as it was mentioned, most enemies have max chance to hit you anyway, especially on higher difficulty settings. Just busting some myths.

In my experience raising Berserker skill for your melee guys is a nobrainer, and it's as "playable" as it can be. It increases melee damage like Strength - twice more than weapon type skills or Roman training - and it's cheap. It doesn't do much else, as the mental resistance seems to be pretty much useless in this game, but what it does is useful, considering that doing damage is the most important thing in the game.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Challenging Nethergate "Role-Play" Character Builds in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #12
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

Celt Beserker is the equivalent of Roman Training. Ups your damage and assures that you will always get hit.
Are you sure about that? :rolleyes:
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Challenging Nethergate "Role-Play" Character Builds in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #7
It could be as simple as adding one conditional statement to the code - checking item number(s) (170/171/172 = candle/torch/lamp) or, better yet, item ability (#210 for those items) and allowing use if it's a match.
In case of flag proposed by Thuryl, it's not like it would be necessary to add a new entry to item definition data. It could be a hardcoded array of bytes, each representing an item. So again, as simple as one conditional statement and one array.

That "nuisance" would take five minutes to do.
Seriously, if I can do it in assembly, there's no excuse for someone with source code. :P

[ Wednesday, September 05, 2007 02:57: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #13
quote:
Originally written by divergence:

It would have been much simpler for you to say "I disassembled the binary" the first time someone asked
I suppose you have a point, but does it really change anything? Anyone can say those words, this alone does not increase credibility. It's still a matter of personal trust, and still anyone can reply "but my test result is different".

quote:
Originally written by divergence:

On the defensive side:

Each level of dexterity gives your enemies -5% to hit you.

A shield spell, apparently regardless of the skills or traits of the druid that casts it, gives enemies -15% to hit. It also seems to reduce damage by some fixed amount (which may depend om the druid's skill; I haven't checked), rather than by a percentage like armor does.

The defense skill is interesting: it apparently reduces the enemy's hit chance by a random amount each time they swing, from 0% (no reduction at all) up to -5% per level of defense.

I believe your observations are correct.
And shield spell damage reduction? It gives -3 dmg levels to the attacker. Doesn't depend on caster's stats, just like bless spell.

[ Sunday, August 19, 2007 23:09: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Maimonides:

Predictions are not data.
Your definition of data is different from mine, that's all.

As for the evidence, right now I have a strong impression that OP is stressing this issue for reasons that are not related to the topic at all. That pretty much anything I say would be countered with the same "oh, but my test tells otherwise", coupled with an attemp to discredit whatever evidence I present. That's already happened when I posted what you call "predictions", and it's going to happen again.
Since I didn't feel like playing these kind of games, especially when I'm physically outnumbered to begin with, and because the evidence I can present wouldn't make any difference even if there was genuine interest in it, I tried some other ways to present you the required proof. Which isn't good enough for you... fine, but what can I do (or should I even care).

I say it wouldn't make any difference, because most likely you are clueless as to what I would say is true or not. Which you shouldn't take offense at, as it's impossible for anyone to be expert in every field and easy to be layman in most. There are things or theories in our lives that we simply have to take for granted (as the effort wasted trying to get the question "how?" answered is simply not worth it). Or simply declare them bogus and believe in something else, that's always an option too. :) In any case, it's still a matter of belief.

I mean I could say that, for example, this particular snippet
0041B475 |> 8B8D 4C125300 MOV ECX,DWORD PTR SS:[EBP+53124C]
0041B47B |. 0FB79424 A2000000 MOVZX EDX,WORD PTR SS:[ESP+A2]
0041B483 |. 8B85 48125300 MOV EAX,DWORD PTR SS:[EBP+531248]
0041B489 |. C1E9 08 SHR ECX,8
0041B48C |. F6C1 40 TEST CL,40
0041B48F |. 895424 18 MOV DWORD PTR SS:[ESP+18],EDX
0041B493 |. 894424 2C MOV DWORD PTR SS:[ESP+2C],EAX
0041B497 |. 74 0E JE SHORT Netherga.0041B4A7
0041B499 |. 83C7 03 ADD EDI,3
0041B49C |. 834424 10 0A ADD DWORD PTR SS:[ESP+10],0A
0041B4A1 |. EB 04 JMP SHORT Netherga.0041B4A7
0041B4A3 |> 8B7C24 14 MOV EDI,DWORD PTR SS:[ESP+14]
0041B4A7 |> 8BB424 48010000 MOV ESI,DWORD PTR SS:[ESP+148]
from the disassembly of Nethergate.exe tells me that blessing pools give +3 dmg levels and +10% tohit bonus. I could even go great lengths explaining you the steps I took to get to that particular snippet, and how I made myself pretty damn sure that it means what I believe it means. It would take more than this page to do so, and in the end, I'm not sure it would be successful, as there are lots of information to take in when you start from 0, and I'm not particularly good at explaining things. So what's the difference if I've said it or not?

I know I've grown to trust my skills more than any test consisting of limited repetition and calculation of average result from a pseudorandom number generator neither you nor I know much about (and I would like to say once again - OP data is close enough to the output from my formulas, only with some difference which can be easily discarded as expected margin of error in the method used to collect that data, to reassure my belief that I haven't missed anything of importance in my research, so it was useful to me).
What do you trust, is up to you.

Anyway, now is pretty good time to cry out "evil haxor" and run me out of your town ;)

[ Sunday, August 19, 2007 17:54: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Armor Use FTW in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #9
Armor Use is simply a must if you want to get anything worth their weight out of your bigger armor pieces.
With 0 pts in Armor Use, Bronze Plate Mail (advertised 30% reduction) does not offer more protection than Fine Leather Armor (advertised 10% reduction). In fact, as shocking as it may sound, actually it offers 2 times less theoretical protection. That's because, as with all advertisments, the percentage you see in the description is misleading in the way that it states maximum protection you could possibly get in theory. And how much of that you get in practise, depends on Armor Use.
Lets analyze this. As per corescendata2.txt,
Bronze Plate Mail has it_protection = 30, it_bonus = 0. (so that's total advertised 30)
Fine Leather Armor has it_protection = 6, it_bonus = 4. (so that's total advertised 10)
Now, it_protection is only a max. The actual protection of any armor piece is calculated this way:
min(it_protection, (skill_armor_use+1)*4) + it_bonus.
So with Armor Use = 0,
Bronze Plate Mail = 4+0 = 4%
Fine Leather Armor = 4+4 = 8%
And that's that. If you want to maximize your armor/shield/etc, you need to raise the Armor Use.
7 points for Bronze Plate Mail, to be exact.
Highest it_protection is 44, that of Polished Plate Mail, and is satisfied with 10 Armor Use.
After that extra AU points won't give any additional protection, as far as a particular armor piece is concerned. Armor Use gives another independant reducement bonus, similar to Hardiness and Luck, so the extra points don't go to waste, especially for Romans since it's cheap, but aren't terribly useful either, unless you really dedicate your build to it.
Overall it looks like this, as far as skills go:
+ luck
+ hardiness
+ max(0, armor_use-4)
+ min(it_protection, (armor_use+1)*4) + it_bonus, for each piece of equipment
Each is calculated independently from each other, not stacked into a bunch.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the process is heavily randomized, as evident from log window. That's because, unlike in some games, where X% reduce means something like DMG-DMG*REDUCE%/100, here X% reduction means that each point of damage has a X% chance of being nullified. Which is very unforgiving to those small reduction values, like for example, char has 3 pts of Luck which offers 3% reduction, and receives 70 dmg, it's quite possible that 1, 2 or 3 doesn't come out of rnd(1,100) in 70 tries even once. Not to mention the situations where received dmg is too low to expect a single pt decrease even if it was happening in a vacuum.
So these skills are either pump it or forget about it...

[ Saturday, August 18, 2007 14:39: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #8
quote:
Originally written by Yama:

How is your info for the Windows version if it's based on my data[/i]
It's not based on your data at all. How did you come up with that nonsense? I presented you your data with my data side by side, since you were having troubles noticing it in my previous posts and comparing it with your tests. Aparently you still do.
Plz increase your reading comprehension skill before replying. Kthx.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
N:R blessing pools in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #10
I'm aware that in SW games 1 level of tohit adds 5% and that on magical items in official campaigns tohit levels are handed out equally with the dmg levels, but in this case it is the way it is.

Btw, tohit is the easiest to check as it actually appears in the log area. Give non-blessed and blessed versions of the weapon to someone who doesn't have melee skills and dex = not very high chance to hit so that it doesn't max out at 95% in both cases, and take a whack at something decent.

Dmg levels are definitely harder to evaluate by ordinary means, although low skill values (slowly raising them up as necessary) and a weapon with the smallest dmg range (dagger/stick 1-3, or damaged dagger 1-2) still would be the best to start such analysis with. Since it's better to log min and max dmg values in some number of tries (in which you are convinced that no smaller/bigger values would appear) and then try to come up with formulas out of such data, than to pay any attention to average dmg (which is too imprecise kind of data without knowing the exact formulas to begin with).
The solution then is to modify corescendata2.txt file, setting some weapon's it_damage_per_level to 1, which means it will do constant damage each hit, which means the total damage will be affected only by other stats of interest, so the number of tries necessary to come up with some conclusion would be defined purely by the complexity of game system and brainpower, unlike the methods of preset number of tries calculating the averages.

But the above method isn't the main source of my conclusions, so in any case, you'd have to either trust me on it or not. Whether I'm pulling it out of my ass or from disassembly, or hitting the same wolf 500 times and writing down the numbers, it still boils down to trust. ;)
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #5
quote:
Originally written by Yama:

You claim that "any increase will be more noticeable on the spear", but in fact this was not the case;
That's not just some claim, that's logic.
dice 1-7 vs 1-5
avg 4 vs 3, difference = 1
avg 5*4 vs 5*3, difference = 5
avg 10*4 vs 10*3, difference = 10
and so on.

Couldn't care less if you use your main data (which is prone to RNG fluctuation and loss of precision when rounding to begin with) to deduce some other data (which further lowers precision) and then jump to conclusions based on these new numbers.
What matters is, if you check the numbers from my previous post with the numbers from your test (first two columns), they differ very reasonably. How reasonable is reasonably, depends only on your sample size - how many repetitions you did of each, because my calculations do not depend on that. The only error my info can have is human error, but the same can also be true for your data too, and I assure you that I have a habit of double-checking mine until it hurts.

Base (+0): 121.2, 82.4 vs 120, 84
+10 str (+10): 166.7, 113.9 vs 160, 114
+10 mw/sp (+5): 141.7, 103.1 vs 140, 99
+10 bserk (+10): 150.0, 110.5 vs 160, 114
14(?) Mighty (+5): 141.4, 99.4 vs 140, 99
Bless (+4): 136.6, 97.1 vs 136, 96

A couple of points difference is quite reasonable when we're talking hundred, given the nature of your data. Even with 400 repeats, 5% is to be expected, and you're not telling me you did that for each of them, aren't you? (Almost) everything of the above doesn't exceed that, which quite frankly should make you happy and proud, not sceptical.
As I said, the only thing that sticks out is your Strength vs Berserker for Spear, which I'd prefer to write off as a product of that random fluctuation unfortunately going opposite directions (and maybe some other damage level bonuses/penalties that took place during your test that you haven't mentioned, as improbable as that may sound).
And the next biggest difference between your data and mine is melee skill for Icy (103.1 vs 99) which by itself isn't that huge, but unfortunately doesn't translate into your conclusions too well. Everything else is almost to a tee, sometimes even remarkably so.

I could check some Strength vs Berserk cases again, to see if maybe there's some weird modifier hidden somewhere that I've missed, but frankly such idea doesn't sound too probable to me, given how blunt the rest of the damage system is. Damage for "spears" and "melee weapons" is generated identically as far as I can tell, and levels from Strength are added before any checks of what kinda weapon the attacker is using.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #3
quote:
Originally written by Yama:

but they fail to account for a few things, such as the fact that weapon damage die affects Strength more than Melee Weapons.
Uh. Not sure what you mean...
+10 pts of str is the same as +19 or +20 pts of melee weapons, so yea, there must be a big difference if you're comparing between +10 of each. Moreover, the increase will be more noticeable on spear because of the better dice: 1-7 vs 1-5 (and the bigger increase, the bigger will be the difference between the two).

Lets put your stats to use:

Base levels of damage with 10 Strength, 10 Melee and Spear skills, 10 Berserker:
OS - 10+5+10+5=30
Icy - 10+5+10+3=28
So the average damage is:
OS - 120
Icy - 84

Average with Bless spell:
OS - 136
Icy - 96

Average with +10 Spears/MeleeW:
OS - 140
Icy - 99

Now the average with +10 Str:
OS - 160
Icy - 114

And the only thing that stands out - big difference in your results of +10 Berserker vs +10 Strength using obsidian spear could be attributed to the margin of error in your empirical test coupled with some RNG spike or something.

[ Friday, August 17, 2007 13:58: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Melee Damage Investigation in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #1
I was intrested in damage calculation too, and here's what I found out...

Total damage breaks down like this:

Each point of Strength adds 1 level
Every odd point of Spears/Melee Weaps adds 1 level
Every even point of Roman Training adds 1 level
Each point of Berserker adds 1 level
Mighty Warrior bonus: charlvl/4 + 2 levels
Blessing pool weapon bonus: +3 levels
Bless spell bonus: +4 levels
Berserk bonus (woad): +5 levels
And the weapon itself adds base-1 levels of damage (for example, obsidian spear, base 6-42=6*(1-7), so 5 levels of damage).
Also there can be bonuses on items (such as Warrior's ring, +2 levels), and a few other things I didn't check (such as curse = -4 levels).

[ Friday, August 17, 2007 11:42: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
N:R blessing pools in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #8
From re-search. Whaddya think, I'm pulling random numbers outta my arse? :rolleyes:
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
N:R blessing pools in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #6
Ya, it's definitely not cumulative.
Adds 3 levels of damage and 10% chance to hit.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
N:R blessing pools in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #3
Thanks guys.
Somehow I missed that one added sentence in item's description... probably because I expected something a bit more impressive, or at least better documentation of those added bonuses - such as added new magic abilities to a weapon, "+X level to melee damage" and "+X% to hit", or something like that. Oh well...

[ Tuesday, August 14, 2007 03:12: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
N:R blessing pools in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #0
What's the deal about them blessing pools? I've read here in these 3 year old threads about all the neat stuff they used to do in the old version...
Now when I use the pool it says that all the equipped weapons will be blessed so they hit more often and do more damage, but then there's no visual proof that anything actually happens - all my weapons stay the same. :confused:

[ Monday, August 13, 2007 07:17: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Nethergate: Resurrection v1.0 for Windows notes in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #10
Thanks, movement is ok now :)
So far noticed one minor bug introduced in this update - when picking up items from ground or containers, the next one in line takes the place of the item that was picked up (that's all good as should be), but its name and description doesn't change until mouse cursor is moved.

[ Sunday, August 12, 2007 03:06: Message edited by: heal plz ]
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00
Nethergate: Resurrection v1.0 for Windows notes in Nethergate
Apprentice
Member # 9695
Profile #3
Yah, plz bring back BoA mouse movement. This one is not 'slightly slower', it's a pain in the ass.
Can't even force myself to play the demo because of all the sloppyness.

Also minimap/inventory switch change from 'space' to 'tab' surprised when I attempted it during combat. 'space' now does the same as 'd' in combat mode, and same as 'w' outside combat, which is even more confusing. But I can live with that.

Couldn't care less about the right click too, I brought that feature back for meself with a simple AutoIt script (also added 'talk' to middle button, heh).

Minor visual glitch, with some probably unnecessary redrawing going on - Game Menu dialog reappears for a sec after 'Save' is clicked, flickers once when changing window focus back to Nethergate, and flickers twice when exiting from Preferences dialog, is that a bug too?
Posts: 18 | Registered: Friday, August 10 2007 07:00