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Originally written by Thuryl:

I believe that Kel was pointing out that you invited opinions, and that UA (Shining Lightbulb) gave you his, and that you went snarky at him for it.

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Originally written by Thuryl:

I believe that Kel was pointing out that you invited opinions, and that UA (Shining Lightbulb) gave you his, and that you went snarky at him for it.

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Originally written by Sizzlin' CPU:


Overwhelming: Your Hebrew translation is not only piecemeal, it is incorrect. The word mishkab does, in fact, mean bed. It is used metaphorically to mean sleep, and by extension that has come to imply sex. That's reading a little to far between the lines, though. The Bible says quite clearly that it's talking about a bed.

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If God forbids homosexuality (...)

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Originally written by Andrew Miller:

Fair enough, Kel - I know I've been a bit harsh. I'm just tired of seeing people continue to be hurt because of the bigotry, whether misinformed or conscious, of others. The consequences of these beliefs are real, unfortunately, and affect the lives of their victims much more than their victims' supposed sin affects them. While I don't accuse anyone here of openly gay-bashing, I find some of the discourse disheartening, especially when it uses what I figure to be a very loving God as justification.

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Originally written by Just Call Me Kel:

Overwhelming, two small points and then I'll go away for a bit: first, the word is homosexuality, not homosexualism. Second, she quoted and interpreted Romans 1:26-27 in that post. You should probably read and analyze the whole thing, rather than doing it piecemeal.

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Originally written by Just Call Me Kel:

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Originally written by Overwhelming:
Let me know what you think.

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Originally written by Just Call Me Kel:

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Originally written by Overwhelming:
Let me know what you think.

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Originally written by Shining Lightbulb:

It's amazingly bloated.

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Originally written by Shining Lightbulb:

It's amazingly bloated.

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This is unrelated to same-sex consensual behavior because it is related to homosexual rape which is just as loathsome as heterosexual rape.

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"Saying that the last recorded acts of the Sodomites -- the demands for same-gender sex -- are proof that they were destroyed for homosexuality is like saying that a condemned man cursing his guards on the way to his execution is being executed for cursing the guards. Sodom was judged worthy of destruction before the incident with Lot and the angels." ~Inge Anderson

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Whenever it is unclear as to what a passage in the Bible is actually saying, it is an intelligent move to let the Bible interpret the Bible.

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Leviticus 18:22

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There are several problems with the English translation of this verse. First is the word "abomination". The hebrew term used is to'ebah which was a word used to describe something that was "ritually unclean". Other things in the Bible that are referred to as to'ebah are things like eating shellfish and touching dead bodies. To'ebah, or "abomination" in this case, is a religious term used to define something as unclean, not as a sin or moral evil. If Moses had wanted to refer to a moral evil or sin he would have used the word zimah.

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The second problem is that this part of the Bible lays down what is known now as the "Mosaic Holiness Code" which was set down by Moses. The New Testament clearly states repeatedly (from both the mouth of Paul AND Jesus) that this Holiness code is no longer in effect; the new dispensation of Christ Jesus replaced it.

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There is yet another problem with this verse, and that is that in-depth study and word-for-word interpretation has shown that the actual word for word translation from the Hebrew is :
And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination.
Or more clearly in modern day English:
Men may not engage in homosexual sex while on a woman's bed; it is an abomination.

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Now I'll do a pause, I'll continue to read and answer your post later (can't promise it for today). Please don't reply until then.

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David and Jonathan are not the only example.

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Not without a lot of evidence anyway. You can say all you want to me, but neither I, nor my boyfriend, will ever believe that God didn't bring us together. We are both Liberal Christians and that's all anyone need's to know.

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If I get the chance, I want to marry him in a civil union or whatever.

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Actually, homosexuality has not been universally condemned throughout human history.

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What happens to people who never hear of Christianity and die without ever knowing that they have a savior to believe in, let alone believing him? Are they damned?

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but can you cite the passage that says this?

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1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

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Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

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The serpent is not Satan. Nowhere does it say, implicitly or explicitly, that the serpent is anything but an anthropomorphic snake.

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Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

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Accusing gays of spreading AIDS is simply factually incorrect.

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"Judging" is any form of synthesizing data and observations in order to come to a conclusion. That's exactly what you're doing. It may not be negative in your eyes, though it comes across that way in mine, but it's still judgement.

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If you proclaim that the laws are for our own good and some of them are outdated, then you open the door for complete reinterpretation.

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Furthermore, with no punishment listed for homosexuality, I still see no evidence for God despising it above all else.

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Guess what? The Bible is grossly misunderstood today as well. Ignorance abounds.

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And if you tell someone that Satan doesn't appear in the story of the Garden of Eden, people will say you're crazy.

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I do not believe He monitors us for thoughtcrime.

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Homosexuality does not harm people any more than heterosexuality.

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Either the laws are immutable or they are not. And the OT has no "morality" laws. Everything is a case of crime and punishment.

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Google easily turns up an NIH citation to support my claims that homosexuality is gene-linked

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