Why do you like BoE but not BoA?

Error message

Deprecated function: implode(): Passing glue string after array is deprecated. Swap the parameters in drupal_get_feeds() (line 394 of /var/www/pied-piper.ermarian.net/includes/common.inc).

Pages

AuthorTopic: Why do you like BoE but not BoA?
BoE Posse
Member # 15
Profile Homepage #0
Several times I've seen posts that mention this. I'm curious as to why you like one but not the other. Thoughts?

--------------------
All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream.

Visit the Louvre, the BoA Graphics Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boa/louvre/
Visit Alexandria, the BoE Scenario Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boe/alexandriajs/
Posts: 653 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #1
I think you can get a much stronger sense of character in BoE. Diolog pics, clearer and more distinctive NPC graphics, etc. The atmosphere is a lot better as well, I think.

I don't know. There's just something about it that 'works' a lot better on a subconscious level for me.

--------------------
SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 2626
Profile #2
To S&M: (Now there's a catchy name. :D )
I've only "looked at" the Avernum demo and didn't like the quasi-3d style.
I'd suppose that if Avernum was the first style one had played, then that style would be "normal" to them, but I've played more than a few of the earlier style games, (TSR's D&D was a big step up from the "basic" games on C-64's), so I'm content with the two dimensional graphics.
Also, I type well, so I'm comfortable with DOS style games and graphics.
Also, Also, I'm a treasure hunter, in that I'm more concerned witht the actual "game" rather than the "bells and whistles" of super graphics.
Lastly, there is no "right or wrong"; no "good or bad". Opinions and tastes. Everybody has them and they're all uniquely different.
"Our strength is in our diversity." D'lenn (B5)
Posts: 257 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4784
Profile Homepage #3
I have played the Avernum demos and I disliked the 3D graphics. IMO It takes away from the detail you can include because in the same pixle space you have to leave room for shadow and depth. Some of the new effects are cool but for what it is, 2D is enough.

Secondly, I couldn't get the hang of the directional interface. I'd end up stepping away from monsters instead of attacking them giving them a free shot. Up should be up^ and that's all there is to it.

--------------------
Forever Always on Past the End

TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs
Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive
Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5806
Profile Homepage #4
If you use the Numpad, such problem should cease to exist. I do not remeber myself having any of such problems.
Posts: 437 | Registered: Friday, May 13 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #5
Some people use a laptop and therefore have no numeric keypad.

[ Tuesday, May 24, 2005 05:50: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

--------------------
The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #6
Even using the number pad, up isn't north. North is 9, East is 3 and so on. This is very confusing, and makes it very difficult to navigate by keyboard while looking at the automap.

Back on-topic again, I like BoE better than BoA for all the usual reasons why many people prefer Exile to Avernum (more distinctive graphics, more spells, less easy, etc).

[ Saturday, May 28, 2005 05:11: Message edited by: Micawber ]

--------------------
"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #7
BoE is great, don't get me wrong.
Still, BoA offers SO MUCH more freedom in terms of design that I don't it's a halfway-reasonable choice in terms of flexibility.

--------------------
*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 4506
Profile Homepage #8
quote:
Originally written by Dervish Malachai:

BoE is great, don't get me wrong.
Still, BoA offers SO MUCH more freedom in terms of design that I don't it's a halfway-reasonable choice in terms of flexibility.

I have to agree.

While BoA is woefully lacking in decent spells, as you can tell by PRIEST SPELLS doing more damage than MAGE - WT...?

It makes up for in designing capabilities. I tried once (ages ago) to make a BoE scenario. The BoE designing system was so flawed that I had to scrap my scenario idea cause it just couldn't be done. Now I've finished Undead Valley, 1/2 way through The Maze, and working on another one (which will remain nameless for now) which will have stuff that only BoA can use.

BoE might have been better if it had been updated over the years, but it's just too far behind the times now.

- Archmagi Micael

--------------------
"You dare Trifle with Avernum?" ~ Erika the Archmage
--------------------
My Scenarios:
Undead Valley : A small Undead problem, what could possibly go wrong?
--------------------
Richard Black - PROOF of his existance (the Infernal one's website).
--------------------
MY FORUM! Randomosity at it's highest! :)
Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #9
...

Try me. What was your "impossible" idea? I guarantee you, there is a way to do it that you have not thought of.

--------------------
*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #10
Er, with enough stuff done flags, you can do a lot of things often considered impossible in conventional BoE design. Very powerful things, those SDFs are.

I like BoE because it works perfectly on our old computer, the interface is rather simple, and designing good scenarios can really give you a sense of accomplishment. BoA may be more recent and flexible, but it's just too...new.

--------------------
-ben4808
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #11
...BoE has SDFs.
God. Hearing newbies harp on about why BoE is bad without the slightest iota of experience is almost painful to read.

--------------------
*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #12
BoE has a third as many SDFs as BoA, though. I found myself having to use bizarre organizational schemes in order to keep them organized, and I imagine that in a large scenario I would run out.

BoE has a lot of arbitrary maximums set at much lower levels than BoA. A town in BoA can have hundreds of times as much text as a town in BoE could've had, and hundreds of times as much code, and many more creatures, and so on. The way to compensate, apparently, is to make lots more towns in BoE than one would in BoA, but I'd rather just use BoA.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #13
I have never even come close to running out of SDFs in either BoE *or* BoA. I'm curious how you managed to create so friggin' many.

--------------------
*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #14
The problem is not running out of SDFs; it's keeping their numbering organised in a sensible way. The BoE editor docs suggest using a single A-value for a single town, but very often you need to use far more than 10 SDFs in a town. With 30 SDFs per A-value in BoA, this advice is much easier to follow.

It would be pretty hard to actually run out of SDFs even in BoE, though. A maximum of 100 towns gives you an average of 30 SDFs per town -- even if you use the after-128 trick to give you 171 towns, that's still close to 20 SDFs per town, which is probably plenty. Scenario special nodes are a much stronger limiting factor in large scenarios.

[ Tuesday, May 24, 2005 18:17: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

--------------------
The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 2626
Profile #15
I don't doubt that from an Author's stand point, the technical aspect of the two systems is important. But, it seems to me that even if BoA is technically "better" than the BoE, if the 95% who actually play the games prefer the BoE, then the efforts of those Authors is being expended on each other, rather than the "consuming" public.
The only reason I'm even writing here is to point out that many of the scenarios have been written by the 5% for the 5%. There are very few "major" scenarios that are playable by the 95%. This seems like an inherent "flaw" in the perspective of those who have the artistic ability to be the Authors.
I realize that many of the 95% will only "pass through" and be gone, but I do believe that a good percentage who come into the Community find the games satisfying and will stay with them for a reasonably long time.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't get so deep into the woods where there are so many trees that the journey isn't enjoyable. Unless, of course, the 95% doesn't matter. Then this post was of no consequence. ;)
Posts: 257 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #16
As far as I know, the split is about even between those who prefer BoE and those who prefer BoA, if not unbalanced in favor of BoA. I don't think a majority of players likes BoE more.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #17
quote:
Originally written by Ahbleza:

I don't doubt that from an Author's stand point, the technical aspect of the two systems is important. But, it seems to me that even if BoA is technically "better" than the BoE, if the 95% who actually play the games prefer the BoE, then the efforts of those Authors is being expended on each other, rather than the "consuming" public.
The only reason I'm even writing here is to point out that many of the scenarios have been written by the 5% for the 5%. There are very few "major" scenarios that are playable by the 95%. This seems like an inherent "flaw" in the perspective of those who have the artistic ability to be the Authors.
I realize that many of the 95% will only "pass through" and be gone, but I do believe that a good percentage who come into the Community find the games satisfying and will stay with them for a reasonably long time.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't get so deep into the woods where there are so many trees that the journey isn't enjoyable. Unless, of course, the 95% doesn't matter. Then this post was of no consequence. ;)

I don't know if it's 95% or some other figure. I don't know how many of the best scenarios are indeed inaccessible to most players (though I don't dispute that some would be). I don't know what the 95% actually want in a scenario. I don't even know what the 5% want. I don't design for this group or that group, I just make scenarios that I myself enjoy. It's my opinion that this is the only really practical option.

Edit: While BoA has many more capabilities on a technical level, I think it fails at immersing the player properly, which is more important than cutscenes or 3D terrain. Thus, while I might have more freedom designing in BoA, I'd prefer to play in BoE, and so any scenarios I design in the future will most likely be in BoE.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 11:48: Message edited by: Ash Lael ]

--------------------
SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 2626
Profile #18
The numbers, 5% & 95%, are just, "for example". I'm sure there's ever been a "study". Although, for the sake of the Community there probably should have been. What if it really is 5% and 95%?
I was just making rambling commentary that it seems to me that the community has evolved to a level that many scenarios are more deeply involving and, in most cases, beyond the "fun" level of play. At least, for us amateurs. :D
And, if there is a valid argument that BoE is more oriented to the Players, while BoA is more oriented to the Authors, then the "producers" of the games may be leaving the "players" of the games behind. This could cause a "rift" that may adversly affect the community as a whole.
Finally, don't pay too much attention to the ramblings of an old man. It's a geriatric thing. :(

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 13:19: Message edited by: Ahbleza ]
Posts: 257 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #19
Jeff should've included a comprehensive list of what STD was used where, not too much different than the special node lists. But that'll probably never happen.

--------------------
-ben4808
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

While BoA has many more capabilities on a technical level, I think it fails at immersing the player properly, which is more important than cutscenes or 3D terrain.
You know, it occurs to me that it may have been exactly this lack of dialog pics that made me balk at the idea of switching some of the cut scenes in Bahs into dialog boxes. A text bubble creates a similar effect to that of a dialog box with a pic, but the problem is that text bubbles are much slower.

That is, one can create the same sort of immersive atmosphere, but one has to do it in very different ways.

quote:
Originally written by Ahbleza:

I was just making rambling commentary that it seems to me that the community has evolved to a level that many scenarios are more deeply involving and, in most cases, beyond the "fun" level of play. At least, for us amateurs. :D
But this "fun" thing is almost impossible to define. There are almost no scenarios that are fun for everyone, either in BoE or in BoA. I think that designers should make scenarios that are at least fun for someone (hopefully both themselves and some others) and not worry whether these scenarios are going to be fun to everyone.

This attitude helps when one gets hate-mail about one's scenarios.

quote:
Originally written by N00BEN:

Jeff should've included a comprehensive list of what STD was used where, not too much different than the special node lists.
This statement is entirely opaque to me. Special node lists? STDs?

EDIT: Oh, that special node list. Wow, it's been awhile.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 21:42: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #21
Urfff. Ugg. *cough*shoot*cough*I meant*cough*SDF*cough*

Sometimes common acronyms get in the way of what you were trying to indicate. :rolleyes: Wow, maybe I better just type out "stuff done flag" from now on.

--------------------
-ben4808
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #22
For the BoE editor to keep track of every single usage of every SDF in a scenario and display it in a useful, readable format would be completely impractical. A single SDF could be set and checked in a hundred different places in one scenario.

--------------------
The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #23
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

You know, it occurs to me that it may have been exactly this lack of dialog pics that made me balk at the idea of switching some of the cut scenes in Bahs into dialog boxes. A text bubble creates a similar effect to that of a dialog box with a pic, but the problem is that text bubbles are much slower.
Agreed. However, there are two drawbacks to this.

First, as you pointed out, cutscene text is too slow to really work for medium or long speeches of any sort. It only works well, in my view, with short, snappy lines. Not a big problem, I think. It is awkward, but I don't think I've ever seen a scenario hurt by too little text. The shorter and terser, usually the better. I would like to be able to write somewhat longer passages before running into the 'talking heads' problem, though.

Secondly, and I think more importantly, a BoA NPC graphic has nowhere near the personality of a BoE Dialog graphic at this stage. If some talented artists were to change this, I may well make the switch to BoA.

[ Wednesday, May 25, 2005 21:49: Message edited by: Ash Lael ]

--------------------
SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #24
I like BoE more than BoA because the graphics are better and it just feels better. The atmosphere when you open up BoE is so welcoming and charming and can adapt to any kind of scenario, whereas BoA seems rigid and unfeeling.

--------------------
"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00

Pages